World War 8mm Mauser: Surplus ammo accuracy/reliability/velocity test

[Blicero]

Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: 

Kevin, I've got:

• '51 Turkish (I know I have newer Turkish, I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!)
• '39 Greek (PCH headstamp)
• '51 Iranian (not the crown headstamped stuff that people are having issues with, though everywhere I read pans this stuff badly...)
• and finally some gorgeous 1999 PPU produced 'sniper' M75.

for you to test out in that same K98 (if you would be so kind )

Package going out today hopefully.

Really?
Well OK then.
FREE AMMO! In the name of science.
 


I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.

[running-man]

Really?
Well OK then.
FREE AMMO! In the name of science.
 


I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.

Yes, you have a rich poor (but rich enough to spend $11 to send some extra ammo they had lying around) benefactor who will pay for your 'services'!  Does this mean you're easy?

I considered not telling you I was sending out the care package, but then thought you might get concerned when an ORM-D package greeted you on your doorstep suddenly one day and you called the local bomb disposal to take care of it. 

It would seem reasonable that the gas port on a semi auto is going to steal some from the velocity, though I guess it depends on how fast the powder burns, how long the barrel is, how tight a fit the bullet is in the bore, etc. 

P.S. For goodness sakes don't sell the K98 until after you've gotten these things Chrono'd!

[Phosphorus32]

I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.

Yes...

...That is, given conservation of energy, and if all other things are equal, i.e., the same barrel length, bore condition, same land and groove diameter, there would have to be a drop in velocity due to siphoning off some of the energy from the deflagrating powder gases to drive the cycling of the bolt.  The velocity in the G43 for the Egyptian ammo was 97% and the Romanian 98.5% of the velocity in the K98 so it was a significant but not large decrease in velocity (of course the barrels are probably not in identical condition).  Given that the energy required to drive the bolt back/compress the spring is fairly low, and the size of the gas port is rather small relative to the area of the bore, it's not surprising that the velocity drop relative to a bolt-action rifle is not large.

P.S. I was working on my long-winded analytical answer while RM was answering more succinctly 

[Blicero]

Then I guess it stands to reason I should keep testing ammo out of the same k98? I figured any k98 would produce the same results. It never occurred to me barrel condition or other factors could change results if using a different example of the same gun. I'm new to this ballistic jargon.

I was sure I had some Iranian ammo but I may have been confusing it with the Turk. Another run through the ammo cans might be in order. I'm fairly certain the Egyptian is 196 gr. The Ecuadorian is a mystery.

That particular k98 isn't going anywhere, Joe. That was the best gun deal I've made in a while. Wouldn't trade it for a matching BSW.

[Blicero]

I was hoping to experiment with the Luftwaffe 98. I just wanted to be able to say Luftwaffens do it faster & harder, print it on a bumper sticker and slap it on my truck cab window.

[Dannyboy53]

Hey Danny, I don't have any old 8mm Mauser cartridges but at the risk of evoking the wrath of Dominus Blicero  here are some pictures of 8x56R cartridges for the M95 Steyr manufactured in Nov. '38 after the Austrian Anschluss (March '38) and hence Nazi stamped (I dont' even have an M95 but I got a few boxes of this stuff in a random lot of old ammo)   



Nazi eagle stamps on enbloc clips


Headstamps

Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: 

I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!

Good smiley info, thanks Joe 

Re the misplaced ammo:   

That's way too cool Phosphorus, thanks for posting!!

[Phosphorus32]

I was hoping to experiment with the Luftwaffe 98. I just wanted to be able to say Luftwaffens do it faster & harder, print it on a bumper sticker and slap it on my truck cab window.

That'd be interesting to compare two K98's with the same ammo (at least one or two types).  Just run Joe's surplus through the original test rifle too, please.

Hey Danny, you're welcome.  I think the old ammo is kind of cool and I have sort of stumbled into half-ass collecting it. 
...and Kevin didn't even give me a hard time about posting pictures of the wrong 8mm ammo (yet)...I'm almost disappointed...I was expecting a beating 

[Blicero]

Phosphorus32,
Please read the rules;
Try to stay on topic,
Thread hijacking is against our policies;
If you wish to continue posting....
Please stay on the topic which is....
8mm Mauser;
Not your goofy 8x56R rounds;
Which is completely unrelated and impertinent to the topic at hand....
This may be a thread devoted to ammo favored by the Nazis but that does not mean any random piece of Nazi-marked paraphernalia is relevant to what we're dealing with;
Thanks...


The red font and superfluous use of semicolons and ellipses really magnifies my authority I hope.

[running-man]

Funny! 

Package is in the mail Kevin.  FedEx says it's going to take 4 working days to get there.  You must live out in the sticks!  I bet you get the box before JD gets his bayonets via covered wagon though!  10 rounds of each, but only 5 of the '99 M75, (I don't have too much of that stuff!) 

Hopefully you weren't expecting a crate or something.  Just enough to grease the skids when it comes time to talk about shipping on my new letter И ruby red laminate Russian! 

[Phosphorus32]

Wow! Red lettering even  I feel appropriately chastised now. Thank-you sir   

[Worm]

Dus any1 no wut kinda sks i got it has 3 asian markings and a trinagle with a symbol in it n dus any1 no wut year it was made tnx

[Dannyboy53]

Dus any1 no wut kinda sks i got it has 3 asian markings and a trinagle with a symbol in it n dus any1 no wut year it was made tnx

 ....Hey Worm, you forgot "how much is it worth?". Like they are a modern day Jed Clampett that just struck it rich with a couple of beat up shooters like mine!

[Worm]

N how much is it worth to tnx

 

[Blicero]

Less than a week after I derail & denounce the quality of Egyptian, African or Middle Eastern guns, this happens.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?377826-Range-Mishap-WARNING-Graphic-Images-for-Hakim-Lovers

[running-man]

That Persian headstamp is very similar, if not identical to what I sent you.  Be careful with that stuff Kevin!

Hakims are pretty well known for slamfire issues right?  The fact that he hadn't even pulled the trigger tells me it's not a double loaded round or a squib.  There was either a round already in the chamber that he didn't notice that was set off by the point of the round he was trying to chamber or the round entering the chamber initiated before the bolt was in battery. 

He's lucky he didn't kill himself...and then to keep shooting after this whole episode?  I'm sorry, but that's just asinine. 

[Phosphorus32]

Holy cow!    That guy is one lucky sob!  Looks like most of the energy went down through the magazine well during that out of battery defecation 

I'm with Joe, If I had an incident like that and escaped relatively unscathed I would call it good for the day, especially since I might not be thinking clearly with a sub-concussive blow to my head 

[Blicero]

Thanks to Runningman we are able to throw some more nations into our worldwide melting pot of 8mm Mauser. He chipped in some Iranian, Turkish, Greek, and a 5-pack of Yugo m75 for our earth shattering, highly scientific experiment here. If this doesn't earn me tenure, I'm going back to being a short order cook.

I mixed it up a little bit. Along with the k98k, I clocked rounds with the k98b as well. I wanted to see the effect an extra five inches of barrel would have on velocity (23" on the k98k, 28" on the k98b). Also, I paid far less attention to what this ammo was doing in the accuracy department on this go-round. The range was packed and I refused to walk 100 yards downrange just to inspect & switch targets.

First up was the Iranian ammo. This stuff was surprisingly accurate, all 10 rounds were in the paint (the paint is a 6" circle). I fired all of it through the k98k:
2554 fps
2431 (hang fire)
2435 (hang)
2485
2506
2466
2426 (hang)
2507
2425 (hang)
2509

This ammo entails three notable features: surprisingly accurate, terrifying with the hang fires, but very educational in that those hang fires show you the quality of your trigger pull!
Honestly, I don't care how accurate it is. If it takes 1/2 the rounds a second or more to ignite, it's junk, good for nothing more than making noise.

------------------------------

Yugo m75 sniper ammo. This is nice ammo, consistently loaded & always sure to fire. Looking at the last bunch of numbers I ran using this ammo, I think it's safe to say this is some of the softest & lightest 8mm Mauser you can find.
All shot from the k98k:
2392 fps
2414
2433
2420
2427

-------------------------------------------

Another go-round with the Ecuadorian ammo. I really need to spend some time paying attention to how this ammo prints on paper. I have no clue what it did today but the velocities were evenly spread. 
K98k:
2502
2510
2515
2505
2480

K98b:
2648
2616 (double strike)
2680
2622
2654

---------------------------------------

Next up is something with which I have zero experience: Greek 8mm. Now, I grew up in a Greek town in Florida. I know their ways. Let me just say...I was not brimming with optimism regarding their surplussed ammunition. But this is fantastic ammo! Consistent, clean, accurate and sure to fire every time. I hope that's not just the result of a small sample size.

K98b:
2531 fps
2537
2467
2516
2526

k98k:
2447
2440
2430
2393
2421

----------------------------------

'50's Yugo

K98b:
2455
2473
2475
2411
2414

----------------------------------

Lastly I tried the Turkish ammo. This is where I had the most fun. My partner told me 3k fps is near the top end of the 8mm limits. Knowing from the last trip that Turk stuff is pretty hot, and that the longer barrel on the k98b increased some velocity across the board, I wanted to push that clock over 3k fps. I nailed it.

K98k:
2924fps
2922
2873
2914

K98b:
2988fps
3018
3008
3038
3024
2997


Fun times! Thanks again to RM for contributing to it! My shooting partner was just as curious to see the Chrony results as I was. We also had some laughs clocking 45acp (snail's pace!), 9mm, 7mm Mauser & 30 carbine. That chrono is the neatest range toy invented since Shiva created firearms.




 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Very nice Kev...   threads like this are awesome to read and very informative!

[Phosphorus32]

Great stuff 

Those Turkish cases must be well stuffed with powder behind that light Spitzer bullet.  That Kar98b is tossing lead at close to the velocity of a round coming out of an AR but with a bullet of almost three times the mass of the M193    Can you say knockdown power?

[running-man]

I'm impressed you got 3k fps Kevin!   

Interesting to see the two Turkish sets:

#1 TURKEY   (head stamped T C / 1943 / FS / 7.9)
2868 fps
2882
2855
2919
2826
2802
2975
2906
2821
2724

#2 TURKEY (T C / 1951? / FS / 7.9)
2924 fps
2922
2873
2914

Almost ten years mfgr difference and who knows what kind of storage each saw and yet the two K98k sets are pretty darn similar!  I wish I had bought another couple of cases of that stuff when it was selling for 5 cents a round! 

I'm glad to know the Greek has your seal of approval.  I paid 50 cents a round for that stuff on GB back in mid 2013 I think and haven't shot a whole bunch of it.  It's good to know that there is some ammo from the 30's that is still decent!

I'm bummed about the Persian stuff.  I was hoping that by using up all the crown headstamped rounds (about 50 of them out of 500) I had 'solved' the hangfire problems.  I guess not.  Maybe I'll put it up for sale: Terrifyingly accurate ammo!