SKS-FILES FORUM
SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => General SKS Discussion => Topic started by: Worm on February 24, 2019, 04:37:57 PM
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Are there any differences between the early Russian black spike bayos & the Albanian ones? Anyone know?
If they're the same, perhaps Albanian bayos are the early Russian bayos that made their way to China & eventually Albania?
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The Russian spike is a cruciform (4 edges like a phillips head screwdriver)
IIRC, the Albanian spike, like the Chinese spike, has only three edges.
Also, there's no evidence that the Chinese received any Russian SKS's other than the roughly 2,000 Soviet-Sinos which were of the latest/final soviet design. So they would have had no need or use for early bayonets.
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Got it, thanks
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The Russian spike is a cruciform (4 edges like a phillips head screwdriver)
IIRC, the Albanian spike, like the Chinese spike, has only three edges.
Also, there's no evidence that the Chinese received any Russian SKS's other than the roughly 2,000 Soviet-Sinos which were of the latest/final soviet design. So they would have had no need or use for early bayonets.
I wouldn't say that, China already had the spike bayonet via the Type 53. They could have chosen to impliment it earlier, but stuck to the basic SKS design till the 9 milions. The Albanian bayonet design could have just come from the Type 53s they received in aid.
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The Russian spike is a cruciform (4 edges like a phillips head screwdriver)
IIRC, the Albanian spike, like the Chinese spike, has only three edges.
Also, there's no evidence that the Chinese received any Russian SKS's other than the roughly 2,000 Soviet-Sinos which were of the latest/final soviet design. So they would have had no need or use for early bayonets.
I wouldn't say that, China already had the spike bayonet via the Type 53. They could have chosen to impliment it earlier, but stuck to the basic SKS design till the 9 milions. The Albanian bayonet design could have just come from the Type 53s they received in aid.
Good point.. very possible
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Albanian spikes are their own completely unique beast actually.
They are shorter, and a bit spindley in comparison to Chinese spikes. The blood groove design is also different. They are seriously pointy lil buggers too, and would rate the lowest on foot pounds needed for impalement of all the SKS bayonets I suspect as a result. :P
The T53 spikes may have been used on the Chinese SKS though, I bought one from a guy who swears he got it on a Chinese SKS he bought new. I made nothing of it, but a couple times I have seen T53 bayo handles with Chinese spikes...just not yet on a gun. Maybe they kinda work?
I bought it to make a faux 49 spike out of it...and almost nailed it...but gave up on the idea, and now it lives on a regular spiker mix mash shooter. The four lobe cruciform is pretty neat for a change of pace. There was a time we debated that it was likely the original spikes for the 48-49 SKS were M44 bayonets ground to fit....until we found pics of the real deal, and it's quite a bit different than either the T53/M44...and even more dissimilar than the Chinese.
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Albanian spikes are their own completely unique beast actually.
They are shorter, and a bit spindley in comparison to Chinese spikes. The blood groove design is also different. They are seriously pointy lil buggers too, and would rate the lowest on foot pounds needed for impalement of all the SKS bayonets I suspect as a result. :P
The T53 spikes may have been used on the Chinese SKS though, I bought one from a guy who swears he got it on a Chinese SKS he bought new. I made nothing of it, but a couple times I have seen T53 bayo handles with Chinese spikes...just not yet on a gun. Maybe they kinda work?
I bought it to make a faux 49 spike out of it...and almost nailed it...but gave up on the idea, and now it lives on a regular spiker mix mash shooter. The four lobe cruciform is pretty neat for a change of pace. There was a time we debated that it was likely the original spikes for the 48-49 SKS were M44 bayonets ground to fit....until we found pics of the real deal, and it's quite a bit different than either the T53/M44...and even more dissimilar than the Chinese.
Uhm..........the Albanian is shorter by maybe... a half inch or so, and not what I would deem, spindly, it's almost a carbon copy of the Chinese.
How are the blood grooves different? Other than there is 4 grooves on a Type 53/M44 and 3 on the Chinese SKS and Albanian. Either way it will hurt and you are guaranteed to bleed. chuckles1
Type 53....Albanian spike and a Chinese spike.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/u6u8ep7ejibck9d/SAM_3578.JPG?dl=0)
And yeah I remember the discussion :) here, I was saying the idea, the Albanian design... Not the actual bayonet it self came from the Type 53, more so than the '49 Russian spike. As I remember there is a slight difference in the two, it would work...but it's not quite right. I am basing that on Albania getting the Type 53 first, as aid....given the Albanian SKS production started just shortly after the Chinese spike bayonet production started, I'm figuring China wasn't going to send the latest and greatest in production as aid. And, I do not remember seeing a Sino-Banian imported SKS with a spike bayonet, they have all been blade bayonets as far as I know, they may exist, somewhere... but, my feeble mind is failing me at the moment. :)
They had to beg, borrow or steal a design from someone, somewhere.... What else did they have.. pretty much what ever was left laying around after WW2... And, they had already pissed off Russia by this point.
Here are the photos from the above discussion you mentioned.. I was using a Russian M 44.. which the Type 53 is a carbon copy of.
Type 53/M 44 bayo locking collars will do an SKS absolutely no good.. SKS top, Type 53/M 44 bottom
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/v5vkjhl312opmqg/SAM_2418_zpstc0nx0sp.jpg?dl=0)
Type 53/M 44 bayonet with a Type 56 SKS bayonet
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/cdtaz8bo3h8kbwt/SAM_2421_zpsypeup9vv.jpg?dl=0)
My M44 sporting the Chinese SKS bayonet using the correct M44 locking collar. It did fit and would lock in place.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/r7ykq8adfla2zv3/SAM_2424_zpsr2kzeegv.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/226uisv6hjpm6qs/SAM_2427_zpsvtk4v8zr.jpg?dl=0)
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clap1
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And, I do not remember seeing a Sino-Banian imported SKS with a spike bayonet, they have all been blade bayonets as far as I know, they may exist, somewhere... but, my feeble mind is failing me at the moment. :)
Steve Kehaya stated there were numerous spike bladed type 56s in the caves in Albania when he was sorting. They simply weren't imported because they weren't C&R at that time. I wouldn't read any more into it than that. thumb1
The fact that an Albanian Model 561 spike is tri-lobed and a Chinese T56 spike is also tri-lobed suggests a connection to me. If it was quad-lobed, I'd look at the M44 or 1949 SKS45 connection, but they are so different that I'd have to say the connection to quad-lobed is tenuous at best.
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With some of the errors found in the SKS book.. it's kind of hard to take him serious sometimes. :) Pictures or something tangible supporting the claims, ok.... maybe, I'd be more apt to buy in to it.
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I believe the blood groove I was referring to is the one on the opposite side of what the pic shows. I seem to recall it being very narrow by comparison to the Chinese, which were relatively the same uniformly for each groove. There is something incompatible about the bayonet handles, and they won't work on Chinese spikes (or possibly blades). I cannot remember if it was the diameter was slightly off, or the engagement angle caused sags...I long ago mangled the handle it came with for a project. But those also are their own 'design' as well. It seems like there may be a reason for the difference....perhaps something to do with the additional weight of the extra stock and gas system? If it wasn't a direct carbon copy and they went to the lengths of redesigning them that far, I think they took the concept, and worked it into their seemingly needless redesign of the SKS.
I briefly looked for one I have around here somewhere...but it took me into a room that has been closed off. My furnace literally blew up...minorly enough to not burn the house down, majorly enough to kill it dead. We just happen to be in the middle of a four day blizzard....single digits. I will try to remember to look for it, mine seemed considerably less robust than the Chinese as well as shorter, like a shrinking overall of 15% or so...I used it on regular SKSs, it was noticeable, but only if you were looking for it, most would just be noticing it's blackness. :)
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I briefly looked for one I have around here somewhere...but it took me into a room that has been closed off. My furnace literally blew up...minorly enough to not burn the house down, majorly enough to kill it dead. We just happen to be in the middle of a four day blizzard....single digits.
:o :o
Stay safe Justin!!!
I can pull an Alby and take some detailed photos of the bayo if you'd like. I just need to know what I'm looking for. thumb1
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I briefly looked for one I have around here somewhere...but it took me into a room that has been closed off. My furnace literally blew up...minorly enough to not burn the house down, majorly enough to kill it dead. We just happen to be in the middle of a four day blizzard....single digits.
:o :o
Stay safe Justin!!!
I can pull an Alby and take some detailed photos of the bayo if you'd like. I just need to know what I'm looking for. thumb1
We are doing our best up here. We have enough space heaters to keep from being uncomfortable in the majority of the house. I just looked outside, what mother nature didn't bury last night...the snow plow did. Our car is up to the hood and door handles. My four wheeler is...missing, along with it's plow. We won't be going anywhere soon. The funny part is in the back of the stupid Subaru, are two brand new...in the box....wood stoves we bought yesterday. It matters not, I couldn't install them...and all of the wood is missing in the yard too. At 10:30 last night, all our phones went off simultaneously. It was the school informing us that for the first time in my daughters career, school was cancelled due to weather. She made it all the way to being a sophomore before that happened. They did have a one hour delay in 2012. This storm started Thursday...she wore a mini skirt to school yesterday.... Montanan's have stones. She also sleeps in one of the cold rooms by choice. Weirdo.
The blood groove on the 'flat' side was what I was remembering. I seem to recall it being significantly....different. It might be a thing you don't notice until they are side by side with other types of spikes...I could swear I noticed it when I was diddling around with T53 bayos for the 49, and had the odd regular spike, and para spike rolling around on the table together with the Albanian. I may be off my rocker and remembering poorly. It sure would be handy if I had an Albanian (and a cleaner house) to check, rather than just the bayonet loose around here...somewhere likely the wife set it down after using it as a back scratcher. Oh, geez...we are all weirdos. :-[
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Oh, geez...we are all weirdos. :-[
mail1 senil1 picker1 wacko1 Who's a weirdo? rofl2
They call for snow here....schools out, Too cold....schools out, too windy....schools out... sunny and 70....schools out.. I remember going to school when the bus had both axles chained up, and we had make up snow days on Saturday.. chuckles1
The Type 53 bayonet latch wont latch on an SKS and an SKS bayonet latch wont work on a Type 53, one is male and one is female I guess you could say..Russian, Chinese, Romanian, Polish and Hungarian M-44s all use the same bayonet and bayonet latch. Where and how they latch is totally different versus an SKS, plus the SKS latch hole for the barrel wont fit over the Type 53 barrel, the barrel is a hair larger in diameter, according to what I have, anywhere from .035 to .045 bigger.
Bayonet latches
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pab4i2a2p3csmod/SAM_3581.JPG?dl=0)
Albanian grooves..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mvygtabmeh3vqrw/SAM_3579.JPG?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1028nwht5kh5es8/SAM_3580.JPG?dl=0)
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you and your family be safe Justin. hope all works out for you.
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And, I do not remember seeing a Sino-Banian imported SKS with a spike bayonet, they have all been blade bayonets as far as I know, they may exist, somewhere... but, my feeble mind is failing me at the moment. :)
Steve Kehaya stated there were numerous spike bladed type 56s in the caves in Albania when he was sorting. They simply weren't imported because they weren't C&R at that time. I wouldn't read any more into it than that. thumb1
The fact that an Albanian Model 561 spike is tri-lobed and a Chinese T56 spike is also tri-lobed suggests a connection to me. If it was quad-lobed, I'd look at the M44 or 1949 SKS45 connection, but they are so different that I'd have to say the connection to quad-lobed is tenuous at best.
We both may have brain farted fart1 I totally over looked 2 others from China.... I wouldn't discount the Type 63/68 or the Type 56 Ak either, they should both have the tri-lobe bayonet, like the Type 53, Albania could have had those before the "numerous spike bladed type 56" that came to them.
And not to read in to it.....just curious.... :) how would C&R status be a factor with all the commercial arms imported from that region that are not C&R i.e. the various Cz made weapons, Zastavia commercial weapons, Romanian weapons, Bulgarian Aks and such. Those spike SKSs have been in Albania's possession for at least 35-40 years at the time of those imports. Other than being Chinese..age should have no real bearing, considering a Cz 82 is C&R and they are '80s produced weapons. If being Chinese in origin were the factor with the spike weapons, how did the Chinese blade rifles get in to begin with? One could argue, they are Cold War relics of a turbulent time now lost to history. :)
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Determining C&R status is a long and sordid journey GM. Chinese SKSs are not on "the list" (https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/curios-and-relics-list-2018/download) like the CZ82 is, therefore the only way they can be considered C&R is to be 50+ years old and in their original military configuration. The only way surplus military arms can be imported in this day and age, is to have C&R status (see where this is headed?) Commercial weapons, even semi-autos, can be imported without the restrictions that surplus military weaponry have to deal with. So when Steve K was sorting the Chinese SKSs in 2011, he knew that only 3 mil and lower stood a chance of getting in using the 1956 + millions formula that BATF apparently accepted at that time. Since there are no 4 and 5 million guns, 6 million guns are so few and far between, and it was unknown what status the letter guns had at that time, that was the cutoff. 7+ mil /26\s were ineligible as were all spike bayoneted 10 mil + guns.
You make a good point about the AKs though. Surely the Albys had spike Type 56 AK rifles they could copy. The type 63's we also know they have in droves, but seeing as how those wouldn't have been imported into Albania until the mid 60's at the earliest and more than likely the early 70's by the time they had enough mileage to be considered surplus aid, I would think the original trilobe bayonet idea came off a type 56 SKS or an AK. dntknw1
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:)) Yeah...I figured you would say that.. it was worth a try. chuckles1
Gotta be a sub clause they fall in... :) Commercial Military weapons.. wink1
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Oh, geez...we are all weirdos. :-[
mail1 senil1 picker1 wacko1 Who's a weirdo? rofl2
They call for snow here....schools out, Too cold....schools out, too windy....schools out... sunny and 70....schools out.. I remember going to school when the bus had both axles chained up, and we had make up snow days on Saturday.. chuckles1
The Type 53 bayonet latch wont latch on an SKS and an SKS bayonet latch wont work on a Type 53, one is male and one is female I guess you could say..Russian, Chinese, Romanian, Polish and Hungarian M-44s all use the same bayonet and bayonet latch. Where and how they latch is totally different versus an SKS, plus the SKS latch hole for the barrel wont fit over the Type 53 barrel, the barrel is a hair larger in diameter, according to what I have, anywhere from .035 to .045 bigger.
Bayonet latches
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/pab4i2a2p3csmod/SAM_3581.JPG?dl=0)
Albanian grooves..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/mvygtabmeh3vqrw/SAM_3579.JPG?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1028nwht5kh5es8/SAM_3580.JPG?dl=0)
Notice how the groove in the 'flat' of the bayonet is significantly less tapered than any other tri lobe? That is what I was referring to.
The guy who claimed his M44 bayonet came from an SKS was likely just an idiot. I had hoped perhaps if it was somebody already did the grinding required to make one fit, and spare me the effort. Nope, just a regular M44 bayonet....welp, it's an SKS bayonet now. :) Someday...it might make it onto a sidefolder SKS project I want to try. :)
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Side folder bayonet.....thumb1
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n0k9qhqqs5whh0t/SAM_2640_zpswxboxxje.jpg?dl=0)
oh, you said SKS rofl2 It's close in design.....
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I put a black Alby bayo on one of my T6 stocked guns. A duel tone (OD & black) rifle. Black slip on Hogue finger grips, black 2 slot Choate HG, black tube, black butt pad, black bayo, and an OD VZ 58 sling with the leather dyed black. The bayo fits great, the set up looks cool. I have another all black, with a Russian "dark" blade bayo. The bayos not really black, but kinda looks like dark grey park. It looks cool too. PAX
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Side folder bayonet.....thumb1
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n0k9qhqqs5whh0t/SAM_2640_zpswxboxxje.jpg?dl=0)
oh, you said SKS rofl2 It's close in design.....
That's pretty rad.... OK OK...so, the detachable handguard? Dustpan for shell casings? Bayonet wound plug?
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I just had the handguard off.........cause I was cleaning it. :) Photophuckit ate the photo with it installed. bat1
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Side folder bayonet.....thumb1
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/n0k9qhqqs5whh0t/SAM_2640_zpswxboxxje.jpg?dl=0)
oh, you said SKS rofl2 It's close in design.....
My LGS has one for sale, $600. It's cool but ammo is scarce in Kali. PAX