Are Popped primers still an issue w/ steel case, berdan primED COMMERCIAL ammo..

[Boris Badinov]

...from Russia, Ukraine, and former soviet satellite states?

I know I've encountered this phenomenon with various commercial brands in the SKS in the past, but I'm a huge stickler for checking spent casings so maybe others aren't as familiar with the it.

I'd like to hear anyone's input about firing recently -purchased,  berdan primered steel case ammo. (The commercial stuff, not surplus)

Any white puffs of smoke from the chamber when firing this type of anmo? Deep strikes or popped primers?


Thanks for any input or insights

[Phosphorus32]

I haven’t but I’ve probably only shot a couple thousand rounds of commercial, mostly Golden Tiger (Vympel) from Russia’s most modern ammunition plant. I haven’t shot every one of my SKSs either. The ones I do shoot, I pay close attention to the condition of the tip of the firing pin during cleaning before I first take it to the range.

[Cz315]

Knock on wood, so far no problems like that with the  223 and 7.62x39 of the Russian steel kind. Last purchased a while back (early 21), though.

[Boris Badinov]

AFAIK, the popped primer phenomenon is only an issue with the sks platform.

Murray (gunsmith) goes into the subject in detail in his subforum on the other site and on his web page.

It seems as if the actual cause has never been definitively identified.

Anecdotally,  when we still lived in PA, i found that when shooting outdoors in cold winter temps the primer issue seemed to not be an issue. Which suggests it may be related to powder type or load.

Although, when its near or below freezing, one is less inspired to retrieve as many spent casings for inspection as one does in spring and summer.

[Greasemonkey]

Apples to oranges, but, the action is very similar, one MAS 49/56 I have did pop a few Prvi primers a long time ago, never was an issue with surplus. I swapped the pin and I've tried Prvi since, and had no issues. Even tried the old pin sometime later and still no issues, but the ammo was years newer.

I have read about other calibers having issues and have seen popped primers attributed to pressure issues.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/content/problems-with-primers/

Then this discussion kind of leads down the path of headspace, sticky chambers etc..
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/fc-7-62x39-popped-primer/2432/5

As for SKS, in the many of the thousands of rounds thru my Yugo, I do not recall a primer issue with either commercial or surplus, but I didn't check every case. Same with one commercial Chinese I have.  The rest, I haven't shot enough to know, they pretty much went bang and I cleaned it and put it up.

[Boris Badinov]

Murrays bullet leade mod seems to crrectbthe problem,. Would that be related to head space in.any way?

....

I'd like one day to retest the effects of cold winter temperatures with regard to the popped primer phenomenon. If cold ammo turns out to decrease or stop the popped primers, it seems as if it would lend some weight to the chamber pressure hypothesis -- i.e. cold  powder burns less efficiently,  which would result in decresed chamber pressures

Anecdotally, I always enjoyed how my groups tightened up on winter days at the outdoor range PA.

[Greasemonkey]

Is barrel leade or barrel throat related to headspace, I guess maybe indirectly, by way of the chamber... barrel leade/throat is the space or jump between the bullet of a chambered round and where the bullet engages rifling.. if you increase freebore/barrel throat length that can increase the bullets jump to the rifling, it can be used to delay the onset of resistance from friction and deformation that results when the bullet engages the rifling, you can in effect... lower the chamber pressure to reasonable levels. Where the opposite, if the bullet contacts the rifling when chambered, chamber pressure can spike until the bullet overcomes both the case resistance and the rifling resistance.....so... we are back to pressure issues..  ah la popped primer..   The overall end goal is to keep to keep the bullet out of the rifling when chambered, yet close enough to maintain accuracy, too much throat can cause accuracy to suffer.

Cold weather not only effects chamber pressure or causes it to be lower, but everything else, cold air being denser in cold can also alter the bullets trajectory, and I'm sure has some small effect in other aspects
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2012/11/the-effect-of-temperature-on-ammunition.html

[Phosphorus32]

AFAIK, the popped primer phenomenon is only an issue with the sks platform.

Murray (gunsmith) goes into the subject in detail in his subforum on the other site and on his web page.

It seems as if the actual cause has never been definitively identified.

Anecdotally,  when we still lived in PA, i found that when shooting outdoors in cold winter temps the primer issue seemed to not be an issue. Which suggests it may be related to powder type or load.

Although, when its near or below freezing, one is less inspired to retrieve as many spent casings for inspection as one does in spring and summer.

Temperature affects deflagration rate of the powder, decreased at cooler temperatures, but the amount of that affect varies by powder. Clearly, it’s an undesirable property, especially in temperature extremes encountered by militaries.

[GuitarmanNick]

I have fired thousand of rounds of surplus ammunition through a couple of SKS rifles and every time I have had a primer pierced, it was the ammunition that was to blame.

Most surplus is inconsistent and if you get a hot load, it could certainly result in a pierced primer. I have pulled samples from most of my surplus ammo and have not found any without large differences between rounds.

Bullets are different weights, OAL varies, some will have more or less powder than they should, etc...

Don't blame the rifle for poor quality ammunition.

[Greasemonkey]

OAL varies, some will have more or less powder than they should, etc...

Don't blame the rifle for poor quality ammunition.

And if the OAL is a hair too long, even by just a few thousandths, the bullet could seat too close or even touching the rifling, rifle depending. This is why a lot of handloaders and match shooters roll their own, they know exactly where to seat a particular bullet and control the OAL for their rifle and control the powder load exactly.  Match shooters strive for consistency.. where with surplus, the only consistence is the little inconsistencies at times.

[Boris Badinov]

I have fired thousand of rounds of surplus ammunition through a couple of SKS rifles and every time I have had a primer pierced, it was the ammunition that was to blame.

Most surplus is inconsistent and if you get a hot load, it could certainly result in a pierced primer. I have pulled samples from most of my surplus ammo and have not found any without large differences between rounds.

Bullets are different weights, OAL varies, some will have more or less powder than they should, etc...

Don't blame the rifle for poor quality ammunition.

I've never had the problem with surplus ammo-- m67 is my ammo of choice.

AFAIK, this phenomenon is associated with commercial 7.62x39 ammo-- particularly modern steel cased ammo, with berdan primers.

[BishopofBling]

Even though this is an anecdotal data point, I've shot Tula, GT, Wolf, M67 and Chinese M43 and have never gotten this popped primer phenomenon. Just like slam fires in an SKS, I think this issue is overblown.

[GuitarmanNick]

I've never had the problem with surplus ammo-- m67 is my ammo of choice.

AFAIK, this phenomenon is associated with commercial 7.62x39 ammo-- particularly modern steel cased ammo, with berdan primers.

M-67 is also my favorite when not using my hand loads(.313" cast only so far). It is the most consistent Berdan primed factory ammo I have used. Groups better than most Boxer primed stuff, too.

[Greasemonkey]

I've never had the problem with surplus ammo-- m67 is my ammo of choice.

AFAIK, this phenomenon is associated with commercial 7.62x39 ammo-- particularly modern steel cased ammo, with berdan primers.

Just for S&Gs..  I typed "wolf ammo popped primers" in to the Google box.. seems if you go through at least the first 3 pages of over a million and a half results, many calibers are affected.. .223, 6.5 Grendel, .308, 5.45, x54r and on and on, even a some Glocks popping 9mm Wolf primers.. At the same time.... it also seems to be pretty prevalent issue in the x39 AKs..  Sounds like many factors at play, maybe the primers are too hard or brittle, I mean to me.... when one looks at the broad picture and overall usage of Wolf ammo, it's "not" just a 7.62x39 phenomenon, it's a "manufacture" phenomenon.

Now, on the flip side, I'm sure if one types... Winchester, Remingtopn, Prvi, S&B, Fiocchi or another manufacture in followed by "ammo popped primers" many results would show up as well spread across a myriad of weapons. I also think it's just Wolf and the SKS/AK go hand in hand usually cause it's the cheap range fodder most are likely to buy. Most shooters won't camp out all day at the range with an SKS and a thousand round case of Hornady Black or Remington green and yellow box..