Terminology discussion

[CARBINE]

To me, the definitions are very simple....

Made to be issued to military or other government agency - surplus.

Made to be sold to civilian market - commercial.

It doesn't matter if it's a new production model, or a model rebuilt from a surplus gun. If it was made to be sold to the civilian market, it's a commercial gun.

I have to agree with PS on this one, this sums it up nicely in my opinion.

[fenceline]

So LC is favouring military... 

I think to accurately depict the differences, it goes farther than just commercial vs military.

Commercial on one end (from spare parts or otherwise), leading to scrubbed, refurbed, original milsurp.

[XXXSKS]

 

[fenceline]

I say we call all SKS with AK mags either SKS-D or SKS-M, and that all commercial rifles are actually made from military parts so they are milsurp too.

    

[Phosphorus32]

 

 

[running-man]

Laugh, that %#^*+� jimmy! 

Here's my opinion (which is worth basically nothing but hey )

1) I think if the gun is scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as.  The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.

2) If the gun is functionally upgraded by the exporter/importer (scope mount, chopped barrel, upgraded to a Monte Carlo stock) it's a commercial variant.  This portion coincides exactly with BATFs rulings on maintaining status as curios and relics. They allow a simple stock change to one of identical material and type, easily removable accessories that don't make permanent modifications to the firearm, and temporary removal of certain parts of the gun such as a bayonet for shooting purposes.  Anything else typically voids C&R status and these types of mods are exactly what the exporters did to SKSs in the 88 to 94 timeframe.

I can see the opposite point of view to 1), but purposeful refurbishment for the purposes of exporting to a civilian market sure seems 'commercial' in nature to me. I typically call the scrubbed guns in std. Type 56 configurations "Blank (late build)" guns in the GB surveys.

[armedhippie]

Nice GM, A great thread that definitely needed discussion. 

See how there's differing opinions....yet no 1 is stomping their feet and saying " its this way just...just because I've said so for years so it must be FACT" Heck...no 1's even been banned...yet 

 Just open discussion, leading to a thread that IMHO, will be an informative and helpful read for newbies and old collectors alike. 

[MEBears]

 I pretty much agree with LC that the only really debatable ones are the scrubbed and renumbered ones. I lean the other way though and still consider them surplus. I liken them to guns from the CMP. Reworked mixmasters but still not "commercial". To me it comes down to whenever General Zhou or whoever decided the military wasn't going to use them any more. Anything after that is commercial.

Nice GM, A great thread that definitely needed discussion. 

See how there's differing opinions....yet no 1 is stomping their feet and saying " its this way just...just because I've said so for years so it must be FACT" Heck...no 1's even been banned...yet 

 Just open discussion, leading to a thread that IMHO, will be an informative and helpful read for newbies and old collectors alike. 

+1

[Greasemonkey]

So.. "any alteration", scrubbed or not, any deviation or physical modification from the original SKS45 design, and its commercial.

Now, the model that has the latch removable bayonet.. as close as it is to the standard SKS, technically it is also... altered, so it would be a commercial, correct?

If it adheres to the standard SKS45 design, stamped receiver and all of the oddities, but not scrubbed it's surplus, as in military grade..

1) I think if the gun is scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as.  The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.

Now this one I find interesting, the grey area has worked it's way to the top,  Like he says, if it were serial OU812 in one life, they grind some, reblue, do a little fluff and buff and now it's serial BR549, something caused that, it technically is different. Because scrubbing by most nations usually means it more or less was repurposed, the scrubbing of Nazi K98s by Romania, Yugoslavia and Russia, the scrubbing of Russian Mosins by Finland. It's kind of along those lines, scrubbed, rebuilt, even reserialed and remarked for a purpose. This purpose could be anything from normal use in new hands to war reparations. And it seems these were mostly later rifles China did this to, so were they scrubbed, rebuilt and repurposed for commercial sale, had they quit using the SKS by this time. Was the scrubbing kind of a de-mil process to get in under a law somewhere, strip the military style aura away, suddenly it becomes a sterile quasimodo commercial sporter rifle. Maybe for China, they had simply become goods for sale to the American consumer or who ever had the fundage for purchase. It was all about the income, they obviously sold weaponry world wide and had no issues selling to anyone who was in the market for weapons buying in the 80's and 90's.

[running-man]

This is a good discussion. 

I think I should caveat 1) to be a little more specific:

1) I think if the gun Chinese SKS was scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as.  The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.

Obviously Russian capture K98s don't magically become 'commercial' when the Russians refurbed them and sent them back into service.

Here's something I was thinking about driving into work this morning.  Suppose you have two Chinese type 56s:

Gun A is a very nice looking 11 million /26\ that has excellent bluing and all parts matching except for the stock which is not numbered (but perfectly matches the handguard and is in like new condition). 

Gun B is a very nice looking late build with all matching S/Ns (let's say it's a 90XXXXX series) including a very nice matching serial numbered stock. 

We can either have:

• Both guns called "surplus" ex-military guns (or simply refurb if you prefer)
• Both guns are called "Commercial" guns
• Gun A is "surplus" ex-military and gun B is "commercial"
• Gun A is "commercial and gun B is "surplus" ex-military

I think I lean towards #3.  Gun A is a surplus refurb with that blank stock.  It was possibly (if not likely) refurbed for the commercial market, but we simply cannot know this.  We do know that it could easily be sent back into the field and would be tracked, operate, and used exactly as it did when it was newly issued. 

Gun B with the scrubbed receiver gained a totally new identity and the "90" serial prefix gives us concrete evidence when the refurbishment was done and why (to get it up to snuff for export to the United States commercial market).  Without this tiny S/N change, this gun would be in exactly the same boat as gun A and would be either as-issued or another refurb.

[Greasemonkey]

This is a good discussion. 

I think I should caveat 1) to be a little more specific:

1) I think if the gun Chinese SKS was scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as.  The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.

Obviously Russian capture K98s don't magically become 'commercial' when the Russians refurbed them and sent them back into service.

Here's something I was thinking about driving into work this morning.  Suppose you have two Chinese type 56s:

Gun A is a very nice looking 11 million /26\ that has excellent bluing and all parts matching except for the stock which is not numbered (but perfectly matches the handguard and is in like new condition). 

Gun B is a very nice looking late build with all matching S/Ns (let's say it's a 90XXXXX series) including a very nice matching serial numbered stock. 

We can either have:

• Both guns called "surplus" ex-military guns (or simply refurb if you prefer)
• Both guns are called "Commercial" guns
• Gun A is "surplus" ex-military and gun B is "commercial"
• Gun A is "commercial and gun B is "surplus" ex-military

I think I lean towards #3.  Gun A is a surplus refurb with that blank stock.  It was possibly (if not likely) refurbed for the commercial market, but we simply cannot know this.  We do know that it could easily be sent back into the field and would be tracked, operate, and used exactly as it did when it was newly issued. 

Gun B with the scrubbed receiver gained a totally new identity and the "90" serial prefix gives us concrete evidence when the refurbishment was done and why (to get it up to snuff for export to the United States commercial market).  Without this tiny S/N change, this gun would be in exactly the same boat as gun A and would be either as-issued or another refurb.

my point was the K98s now had been repurposed, acquired a new use, like being used against the makers. 

I would tend to agree with your little test question answer of #3

Cause gun B, no clue what it once was, now you only can see what it is. And one can not say with a lay your hand on the Bible and swear on mommas grave it is a 100% certainty it was an actual military issued or built weapon. It's been sterilized, neutered and cleansed of it's past existence.

You gotta call them what they are, now in the present, not jump up and down and swear they were this or that in the past, that past has been erased, cleansed... the past is just a best guess wag and one would have no definitive proof of what they actually were. What one does have, is visual proof of what they currently are.

[fenceline]

Do we have to force these sks into 2 classes?  It has been pointed out that we don't know if a scrubbed or refurb gun was military or not, that we should consider it commercial. I think having "no other info" as our measure of what is commercial could easily be flipped to "if we have nothing to prove it's commercial then it must be military".  The lack of evidence doesn't push one or the other.

I think scrubbed / refurb could be a classification all its own, when lacking proof either way to substantiate a military or commercial direction.

[Greasemonkey]

Not to offend.. but what would be the issue with either term, military or commercial? If it were scrubbed, it's cleansed, history and any previous info is...history, gone. Is it the fear of owning a possible former military weapon that is now deemed commercial, does the term "commercial" offend, does it make it more feminine, in the end, it is still an SKS, made, or better yet, remade in China, I guess my question is, does the term "commercial" make it any less accurate, less powerful, less manly or whatever?  It puts me in the mind of the age old Marlin vs. Glenfield .30-30 argument, while both were made by Marlin, just one is treated more like a cheap bland store brand, the other has the fancy smancy brand name stamped on it, in the end, the deer that got shot had no clue if it were a Marlin or a Glenfield that drew down on it and killed it. They are pretty much the same, just a different moniker.

[fenceline]

I guess my angle is that just because it is scrubbed, doesn't mean it was scrubbed for a commercial purpose. Lots of nations scrub guns. Lacking direct proof of why a gun was scrubbed, or refurbed, doesn't help put it in either category.

We can assume it was done for commercial reasons, but the scrub alone isn't proof in itself of that.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Not once have I ever seen a obviously used and worn rifle imported scrubbed.  This tells me they didn't do it for military purposes. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

In addition....all the scrubbed guns that are able to be dated date well after when China stopped using the sks for military use.  Reference my first post.  So yes, its pretty well certain they were not scrubbed for anything other then the commercial market.

[armedhippie]

So.. "any alteration", scrubbed or not, any deviation or physical modification from the original SKS45 design, and its commercial.

Now, the model that has the latch removable bayonet.. as close as it is to the standard SKS, technically it is also... altered, so it would be a commercial, correct?

If it adheres to the standard SKS45 design, stamped receiver and all of the oddities, but not scrubbed it's surplus, as in military grade..

While reading this discussion, The 1 of mine that just keep popping to mind was my SIX CORP SKS.
http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1307.0#top

 When taken down to just the barreled receiver ( which was thoroughly scrubbed of all markings) and compared to early SKSs like a ghost, 2 mill, 3 mill or letter gun, There are no differences. W/o looking at the s/n's, any 1 of us would have a hard time telling which was which. There's no doubt in my mind the six corp started life out with these early examples.

Now as you put it back together, the parts begin to become a mash-up of old and new. Granted they are all matched by the new s/n. It's still a mix and screams put together for export. The stock is un-numbered and shares a distinct deep red with polytech Legend  AK's imported the same year. It's been re-s/n with an 88 prefix and has a detachable bayo the same as the 88 prefixed SKS D's.

As it stands, apart from the detach-bayo, It has barely deviated from the original SKS 45.
 Do I think it started life as a military SKS? Yes

Would I consider it a commercial SKS now? Yes

Now it wasn't newly made like some for export, but it seems to me, it was put together solely with commercial export in mind.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Heck GM....  Adding the term 'commercial' to an sks now days adds a premium!   So I 'like you' dont see what the big deal is.  Its not a 'bad' thing......

[Greasemonkey]

Heck GM....  Adding the term 'commercial' to an sks now days adds a premium!   So I 'like you' dont see what the big deal is.  Its not a 'bad' thing......

Hell, any descriptive words add a premium, like there ain't a fricken shortage of terms already, whats another gonna hurt....I mean, we got as issued, light refurb, heavy refurb, not issued,  was then, bla, is now, as that, bright shiny bore, buzz, matching, mis-matched, never shot, New In Box, bork, recon, redone, refurb, re this, all of it makes me wanna "re"gurgitate, so why would I really care if another loose term is thrown around.  We are paying for these words anyway, just like stamps, serial ranges, a little feature here, a funky lever there... In the end it's an SKS, and they are quoted as being "superior to a M1 Garand or Carbine" anyway.. 

Besides, it gives RM's Jimmy something to talk about the end of every month when he grades all of the completed GB tests 

[running-man]

Do we have to force these sks into 2 classes?  It has been pointed out that we don't know if a scrubbed or refurb gun was military or not, that we should consider it commercial. I think having "no other info" as our measure of what is commercial could easily be flipped to "if we have nothing to prove it's commercial then it must be military".  The lack of evidence doesn't push one or the other.

I think scrubbed / refurb could be a classification all its own, when lacking proof either way to substantiate a military or commercial direction.

I'm always open to any alternative Fenceline.   
I would argue that the two types we're talking about only apply to Chinese SKSs and are pretty easy to differentiate with 99.9% of them falling into:

Military:

• Is a std. type 56 configuration with no "extras", and
• Receiver follows std S/N patterns, and
• Has arsenal stamp (unless it's a ghost or Soviet-Sino), and
• Piece parts on 'as-issued' specimens conform to the styles used during the build timeframe (i.e. long barrel lug pre '65, etc.) while piece parts on obvious refurb specimens can be from different eras but are very noticeable and look out of place on the gun.  All piece parts may or may not be matching, but the receiver S/N being original is key.

Comercial:

• Guns with "extras" (SKS M, SKSS, Polytech Hunter etc.) that may or may not have original S/N and arsenal stamp, or
• For those that are in a std. type 56 configuration, have clearly scrubbed receivers.  These scrubbed receivers are typically replaced with a new S/N having no similarities to the original S/N. (i.e. 89XXXXX as the S/N) and the original arsenal stamp is removed as well.

There are only a handful of Chinese SKSs I've ever seen that don't fall into these two categories.  Refurb vs as-issued really should have no bearing on these designators.