Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and kick this can around the yard.. This is really long, caused a headache and I hate typing this much, especially on my day off..
The terminology of commercial vs. surplus
It's been a long standing argument, so lets hash it out, clear the air, it seems that this is a major thing relegated to the SKS side of collecting. I can't think of another collectible firearm where this is such an issue..
Disclaimer.....this is not intended for bubba rifle discussions, they are what they are, state side made variants. So...don't go there
So, just say to yourself: Self, I will not discuss state side Crapco special bubba made rifles...
An actual military surplus weapon is, at least to me, one that maintains all original military parts, whether or not it's refurbed, it's form, it's function are as the day it were built, in other words, they pulled it from the storage crate, rack what have you and put it in the box and sold it to me through an import vendor. If you hopped in a time machine and went back in time, you would see this exact weapon in use on the field or being put in it's storage rack, C&R weapons would be a prime example.
Now what deems a commercial, a sporter, civilian weapon, is it one built solely of once milspec parts for the sole purpose of selling to consumers, is it one thats purpose built to look and function like it's military counter part(within legal guidelines) or is it one built and altered to a newer different spec, maybe it's one that looks identical, dated from the same time frame, operates identical, but is just missing all the military acceptance stamps/marks/proofs. To me, it would also make sense, any weapon that had to be rebuilt, uses specialized parts not found on a equivalent milspec weapon or redesigned from a selectable full auto and converted to semiauto is a commercial weapon, why, because it is no longer original, it has a different receiver and firing group and/or other parts, off the top of my head, the Cetmes, the FN FALs, the UZIs, the Vz61s, the M31 Suomi, the AKMs, the RPKs, a Vz58, a M1927 Thompson, even the M-14 and M-16, and all the other cool weapons, all of them are basically commercial, built from receiverless parts kits on neutered altered modern day stamped/machined receivers. They have the look, the capacity, the feel, but lack the bite. A true blue bonafied surplus weapon of any one of those examples would run you a fortune and some paperwork.
Lets pick a random semiauto example.....the little 'ol M1 Carbine, this little venerable historical weapon has seen major world battles, conflicts, stood guard while we slept and has also been commercialized almost like the SKS. Caliber/manufacture/origin/history aside, the M1 Carbine, like the SKS, parts are plentiful, the weapons are common, and aftermarket stuffs are usually easily found. Now, what separates one from M1 Carbine from the other, well naturally you have the tried and true USGI models, the National Postal Meters, I.B.M.s, Rockolas, Saginaws, etc, but then you have the early Universal and Plainfields built of USGI parts, then later, they were made of all new parts by a huge number of manufactures, rebarrled, recalibered, scoped and altered from the original design, available overall in many different variants.
So lets compare the two...maybe simplify things,
How would I do it, how would GM's feeble mind lump these two different weapon systems into equal categories....
Well, a "SURPLUS" USGI M1 Carbine would rate with the SovietSinos, SinoSoviets, Ghosts, Letter, Middle Eastern, Bring Backs, SinoBanian, Romanian, Yugo M59, Chinese/NVA, Polish, East Germany, Russian or any that were pretty much following the original as designed SKS45 form. Like the M1 Carbine, the SKS saw slight improvements, bayonets changed, stocks, little changes here and there, but the general form was still there. It's still the way it was built and designed, maybe it saw refurb, restock, rebarrel, but, it still holds to the general military spec Simonov SKS45 design. Regardless of lug design, bayonet design, lightened bolt and carrier, it's still a Type 56 SKS, just like it's a USGI M1 Carbine.
I think I would stick the long barrel Yugo, the Albanian, Chrome Chinese/Yugo Honor Guards, the M59/66 and M59/66a1, the North Korean, yes, while they are not holding strictly to Simonov's plan, just hear me out on these.... These were purely military grade and designed, they saw use in conflicts and use in their respective military. They were military designed individually to suit one's particular military needs at the time, I offer the M2 Carbine and/or the M3, they both were military designed and produced, but they are altered M1 Carbines to suit the needs of our military and make a fair comparison for these SKS models. Point is, these SKSs were not rebuilt or purpose built just for the sake of resale, to meet ever more stringent import laws or to entice sales with larger mags, shorter barrels, thumbhole stocks etc.
The early Universals and Plainsfield M1 USGI parts Carbines, these were "commercial" built from surplus parts to make complete carbines.... I guess I would lump the later rifles and post ban rifles in, bayonet lugs chopped, riveted, brought in with no bayonets, the later kind of crude built, rush for import, make that quota, satisfy demand, the stamped SKSs or any still "close" in original military spec or form, but just ever so slightly different than the original SKS45 build spec.
Like this group of M1 Carbines, these SKSs deviate just a hair in some form or another, these are what I'd call, I don't know, maybe the limbo rifles, grey area or semi-surplus, they fit somewhere between the true blue surplus and true blue commercial, some more one way than another. Like these "almost" USGI Carbines, maybe, they are almost true military SKSs, but something, some detail or part is ever so slightly different from the original SKS45 design. Usually like this group of M1 Carbines, the SKS, most all parts are usually easily swappable between the this variant and the true military variant above.
Now, the commercial Auto Ordnance, Chiappa, ERMA-Werke, Iver Johnson, Global Arms, Rock Island Armory, Howa, and on and on M1 Carbines etc, to me, these would constitute the Ds, the Ms, the Para, the Type 84s, the Cowboy Companions, SKS Sporters, even the Bosnian made G10 variant, and all the others. Like this group of M1 Carbines, these SKSs still have the basic functionality and almost the same looks, they are just majorly altered in some form or another from the original basic SKS design. Maybe, if your lucky, a very small handful of USGI parts fit these commercial M1 Carbines, just like maybe a handful of SKS parts fit these variants. And in both systems, some are highly collectible, expensive, rare, while some are not.
Now whether or not they were built as a regular Type 56 SKS and torn down, butchered and modified, or just purpose built in this form, shouldn't have any bearing. Sure, it may have milspec internals, but how many SKSs built use totally all new, modern day bits in them, so this is a given. Too me, it's the now thats important, not the past, the then or it once was is just subjective to the individual person. But, regardless of what it once was, it is "now" a sporter commercial rifle, altered and changed from it's original military SKS45 design, it's just that, it now just does not adhere to Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov's design, like a majority of these commercial M1 Carbines usually don't adhere to the U.S. Military design. It's has basically became a hybrid SKS, it works kind of the same, looks kind of the same, but in the end.... it's not really, the same.
It kind of repeats it's self in other weapons, oh.......like the Enfield, take a Santa Fe Mk5 Jungle Carbine, while it's almost identical looking and every bit equal in operation and in recoil to a BSA Shirley or ROF Fazakerley, but, this No5 Enfield will never will be a true military rifle in the true sense of the word, it's a commercial copy, derived from what was once a "once military" grade SMLE Mk III or a Lee–Enfield No. 4, it's just chopped, butchered, fluffed and buffed, it's been commercialized and ergo..it is now a commercial rifle, a replica, if you will.
Or take the M-14, the original had a fire selector switch, sure, the early ones were built of USGI parts, but like the built from a kit rifles above, had a semiauto receiver, the automatic fire/select fire receiver was a no no per the ATF, so it was a commercial variant, a kit, because a normal working class citizen possibly couldn't afford a true select fire M-14, now today, it's sold simply as a M1A Springfield. Another variant, the old PolyTech M-14 is a commercial weapon, sure, if your lucky, maybe some USGI parts will fit, but a handful of USGI parts doesn't constitute a true Polytech USGI M-14.
Lugers, Mausers and C-96 Broomhandles were also commercially made, while side by side visually identical to their military counterparts, the only thing that separated them is the missing stampings, acceptance marks, or waffenampts, or even just serial ranges, but, in the end...... they are still.....commercial made weapons.
So...... that is GM's take, Jimmy is now highly restless and I'm sick of typing, maybe I'm just totally wrong on the subject, so, you all discuss it, and I'll just read.
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