Author Topic: Hypothetical build  (Read 22770 times)

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Offline Justin Hell

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Hypothetical build
« on: October 16, 2014, 07:17:31 PM »
My first Chinese SKS came in a Combat Exchange folder, with a wood hand guard and a 30 round USA mag. The spike bayonet was either in the box or attached, I cannot remember but it did come with it....as did the original mag.

I have had it for well over fifteen years, and in that time the stock broke, as did the hand guard.  It has been bubba's project platform ever since...did a mod to the bayonet groove to accept a blade or a spike for another incarnation that had plenty of USA parts to make 922r a non issue.

If I were to install a Yugo stock, the Yugo blade, a cheese grater, and the USA mag would this trigger 922r as it is as close to original military configuration as can be with parts imported from two different countries and the three parts of the mag that count being USA made?

  I could and may reinstall the factory mag if that makes a difference.  From what I understand of the law (and who REALLY understands it?)  replacement of broken parts should not be an issue, and the 'evil features' have been a non issue since the expiration of the AWB correct? 

I have read and reread things posted online regarding it, and it is thoroughly confusing.

I like to think that since it wouldn't be a folder anymore...thats one less questionable thing, the blade is a safer bayonet than a spike with regard to damage done, the only thing that seems potentially eyebrow raising would be the detachable mag.   

Does the fact that all Yugos are considered C&R regardless of age make any difference when using Yugo parts to replace Chinese parts?

Considering that over the last couple of years tons of SKS's have been imported with bayonets attached using a mish mash of Russian, Chinese and Albanian replacement stocks, this build seems to be importable, the mag is the main issue from what I can tell.

Offline Adam7

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2014, 08:34:09 PM »
I just skimmed your post, but let me say this... If it was my sks, I wouldn't loose sleep over 922r.  Ever.  I know some people like to get bent out of shape on this issue but I have yet to see any hard evidence.. Ever.. That it has been a chargeable offense.  but that's just me and some might disagree.  Just throwing that out there.

Offline Worm

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2014, 10:50:41 PM »
While I have no good reason to avoid 922r, it's unconstitutional.

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2014, 02:13:29 AM »
After being suspended at some other place over getting pissy with an admin over comments made about a home made hand guard, I am just watching out for all of us here....testing the waters so to speak.  I think the law is silly, and unenforceable at best.  I was gonna post photos of how awesome this hypothetical build is...but deleted the post before showing it...I don't want to cause any trouble or ruffle any feathers.

Thanks guys...

Offline running-man

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2014, 09:43:20 AM »
It's no trouble, it's a valid question.  Unfortunately, each and every 922(r) case is usually something that needs a determination by ATF because they often choose to selectively enforce laws.  I agree with Adam above, 922(r) isn't something they go after you for, it's something they add on when they find an illegally modified weapon at a drug bust, or when busting a cockfighting ring. 

Here's my personal interpretation of 922(r) in your situation, take it with a grain of salt:

922(r) basically says you can't manufacture, from imported parts, any weapon which you couldn't otherwise legally import.  Current law states that it is illegal to import any semi-auto, non-sporting (i.e. military surplus) firearm that is not a C&R.  The recent Sino-banians got in because, and only because, they got a C&R classification.  When you modify these types of firearms, you can lose C&R status, basically invoking 922(r). 

Things you can change w/o invalidating the C&R status:
  • Swapping to another wooden stock of the same type (i.e. not a thumbhole or Monte Carlo)
  • Replacing a damaged or mismatching serialized part with a replacement part identical in form & function. (10 round box mag with another 10 round box mag)
  • Adding a spring loaded firing pin.
  • Putting on or taking off the bayonet to shoot, store, etc.
  • Adding a scope, using different sights, slings, etc. (The way I understand it, these are temporary shooting aids that can be easily removed)

The things that alter the original military configuration & cause the firearm to not be considered a C&R:
  • Adding a composite stock, or a wooden stock in a thumbhole or Monte Carlo configuration.
  • Adding a composite or metal handguard.
  • Adding a detachable magazine.
  • Cutting the barrel down to 16.5".
  • Permanently modifyting the bolt carrier for LH operation.

In your case the cheese grater and detachable mag would revoke C&R status (assuming it had C&R status to begin with) and invoke 922(r) and you'd have to swap out two additional parts (assuming the mag and hand guard are US made) to be 'legal'

So what happens if you have a late Chinese that is not a C&R?  That's a darned good question.  Since 922(r) only covered the assembly, one assumes that since the gun is already imported into the US, it's legal in the condition you received it.  If you begin to upgrade it in any way, I think they could argue that's a new 'assembly' of it and 922(r) would apply to even simple parts upgrades.

It's a confusing minefield.  They like it that way, as confusing as possible means that they can drop the hammer for seemingly insignificant things whenever they want to. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2014, 11:04:47 AM by running-man »
      

Offline Lmbass14

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 10:01:31 AM »
Never seen the 922(r) police at any range I frequent.  Can you just see them stripping your long gun and counting parts?  Don't think it will happen.

Good thing I'm a purist.  :P
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Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2014, 10:02:23 AM »
Quote
Does the fact that all Yugos are considered C&R regardless of age make any difference when using Yugo parts to replace Chinese parts?

C&R status would effect a complete rifle only, not parts,  C&R firearms have to maintain 'as imported' condition to comply with the C&R law.

Given this "Hypothetical build" is an early imported Chinese since it's been here 15yrs, it's not a C&R anyway. Parts are just parts, pieces are just pieces.

If you started with a C&R weapon to begin with, then you may have to deal with these items, but only thing I see is 922r, and I don't know cause I don't swap tacticool stuff.
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Offline routeus1

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2014, 02:11:40 PM »
Maybe some answers in here, (probably more questions)....

“Survivors” SKS FAQ

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2014, 07:40:36 PM »
Maybe some answers in here, (probably more questions)....

“Survivors” SKS FAQ

The last time I visited the legal section there, I was banned for a week.  ::)

Since everything is now simply a replacement, which should be OK with what I get from 922r, she will live like this...which is kind of too bad, she looks really good with a USA mag taken into the white.  :(

 

 If I need the detachable mags, I will simply put her in one of the aftermarket stocks that gets my count back to normal.  This law is silly.

Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2014, 01:33:15 PM »
Justin, I agree with others that 922r enforcement is pretty much non-existent as a stand alone charge. That said, I don't like rolling the dice with the BATF and potential felonies, etc. An option would be to send your trigger group to Murray and have him install his US made hammer/trigger/sear and tune it. I did that with my Sporter and the trigger is so much better. You could also get the parts form Murray and have Kivvari do the work as he gets raves about his SKS trigger magic. It's a little pricey, somewhere around $125 total I think but you get three more 922r compliance parts and an awesome trigger that will make that your favorite SKS shooter. Combine those three parts with your cheese grater and you are 922r compliant no matter what stock and mag setup your heart desires. That said, the cheese graters don't usually (like never) have made in USA stamped on them anywhere so you may want to consider spending another $25 or so on a made in USA gas piston (op rod doesn't count, it's the gas piston you want).
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2014, 11:36:14 PM »
While I have no good reason to avoid 922r, it's unconstitutional.

 thumb1


Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 01:12:10 PM »
Justin, I agree with others that 922r enforcement is pretty much non-existent as a stand alone charge. That said, I don't like rolling the dice with the BATF and potential felonies, etc. An option would be to send your trigger group to Murray and have him install his US made hammer/trigger/sear and tune it. I did that with my Sporter and the trigger is so much better. You could also get the parts form Murray and have Kivvari do the work as he gets raves about his SKS trigger magic. It's a little pricey, somewhere around $125 total I think but you get three more 922r compliance parts and an awesome trigger that will make that your favorite SKS shooter. Combine those three parts with your cheese grater and you are 922r compliant no matter what stock and mag setup your heart desires. That said, the cheese graters don't usually (like never) have made in USA stamped on them anywhere so you may want to consider spending another $25 or so on a made in USA gas piston (op rod doesn't count, it's the gas piston you want).

I have been giving serious consideration to getting a trigger job with US parts, I also fear that I will be tempted to continue doing them on all of my SKS's!  This particular one has had some minor work done to it, sear polish and wolffe springs...and already it is a considerable difference.  I have also been kicking around the gas piston idea as well, it's not like I couldn't swap it out on other bubba setups to get that one last part out of the way.

I may end up going that route...I do have a spare trigger group that could also swap out from SKS to SKS based on what wild hair has me messing with them. :)

Offline Adam7

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 09:14:39 PM »
I found the solution to all of your problems!!

http://ebay.to/1CSP6ws

 rofl rofl

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 09:19:01 PM »
I found the solution to all of your problems!!

http://ebay.to/1CSP6ws

 rofl rofl

 rofl
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 10:15:15 PM »
I found the solution to all of your problems!!

http://ebay.to/1CSP6ws

 rofl rofl

Oh, I have considered one before...a tad less spendy than that, but not much.  I suppose I could rent it out to folks with cheese graters nationwide and more than make my money back.  :P

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2014, 10:21:25 PM »
Funny...  the cheese graters are made in usa but dont state it anywhere on the part.  I told a guy he should do this 5 years ago and he did.   chuckles1
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2014, 10:26:30 PM »
Funny...  the cheese graters are made in usa but dont state it anywhere on the part.  I told a guy he should do this 5 years ago and he did.   chuckles1

It isn't like I couldn't buy em from eBay, stamp them, re-list them for double the price.  Custom serialized to your gun for triple? 

I already have a hammer.  rofl

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2014, 10:33:26 PM »
(Note to self: Don't buy parts from these guys)  :o

Offline Greatguns

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2014, 02:15:40 PM »
Here is my .02 worth for anyone who cares. :P
The absolute only way you can know if 922r even comes into play on your SKS or if it is compliant to 922r without swapping out the already understood quantity of parts for the given variant is to get it in writing from the Technology branch.
In this case, JH's pic of how he is planning on leaving it I think would fall into the replacement part category on the HG. If, however, he wants to use the detachable USA mag then yes replace one more part and he is fine.(mag=2, HG=1, buy a piston or replace the stock=1, good to go)
Overall, as pictured, I wouldn't worry about it since it still looks fairly original in concept. Even if the ATF did go around checking Firearms for compliance unless you had a jerk for a field agent they'd leave you alone.
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Offline 1mlt

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2014, 06:20:26 PM »
May I weigh in with my worthless .02cents worth? The risk of losing your "right to bear arms" is not worth the gamble. To replace the hammer and sear is a piece of cake, 10 mins max, 2 parts. Replace the 10 round box mag with a detachable, 2 mins, 2 more parts. Replace the stock and hand guard with your USA made choice is 2 more parts. Total of 6 parts. Even with a Yugo, that gets you to 15-6=9, 1 under the law. All others = 8. And it IS the law. Not worth the chance you get an ATF agent looking to make a name for himself. Don't forget the agent that tried to shut down that Seattle Company selling Airsoft guns as "easily converted to FA"!!! Forget that the Airsoft won't handle the 35,000psi and explode in your face. As always CYA.

PS: 922r applies not just to the SKS, but ANY imported platform you own. My Belgian, Browning, A5 shotgun ALSO falls under the 922r requirement. So, if I were to replace the shell holder tube with one that holds 9-10 shells, for example, as a HD shotgun, I would also need to replace "additional" parts to be in compliance.

If you use an aftermarket mag (or stock), with the M-Nagant, same 992r law applies. ANY change your make to an imported firearm, falls under the 922r requirement. Modifier be aware.

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