SKS-FILES FORUM
SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => Chinese SKS (Military) => Topic started by: Greasemonkey on January 21, 2018, 02:57:22 PM
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I am curious.. again, Scary, I know.....usually it doesn't work out well... But... the added letters used in Chinese serial numbers. It's another age old rumor/myth/weird wonderment.. China did it...or the importer did it..lots of confusion..
I don't think or even know if anyone has ever tracked it or even really looked in to it and so I am curious to see how it comes out, partially cause I have 2 myself. I would think all these rifles exported from the same few places in China to the many places in the US. So to me, wouldn't it make sense if China marked them, then most of the importers would have sold them, so in theory I should end up with a big list of various importers.. But, if the US importers did it, then only a few limited importers who added the letter to them, should show up on the list..
Nothing at all may come of it, but it never hurts to look to see if it's only certain importers or maybe factories that did it. Or.. maybe even take it as far as were certain letters used by certain importer/factories...
Basically, are these letters before/after the serial associated with just certain importers.. or possibly more associated with certain Chinese factories?
So maybe post photos of your factory and import stamp, blot out the serial if you so desire.. photos would be great and would solidify the data and carry more weight vs. just posting the info.
Results will be kept at the bottom of this post..
These are my 2... both are imported by Poly/PTK Atl. Ga, same importer from slightly a different time frame and different factories..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/r6g0qau0zczmtpl/SAM_2666_zps094bjnwm.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/8c797qxr0fftsn3/SAM_2667_zpsjjyj87xn.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/90wb3opapqyyotp/SAM_3196.JPG?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jmokt3twron9jbs/SAM_3198.JPG?dl=0)
Score card...
Factory.....Importer.....Suffix/Prefix used, Serial millions
0138..Poly/PTK... C 7.6m suffix
636... Poly/PTK... B 1.7m suffix
26... Poly/PTK... I 11m suffix
26... Poly/PTL... B 10m suffix
26... KSI CA... P 10m suffix
26... Poly USA... K 23m suffix
206... CSI ONT... C 1.4m prefix
Double letter suffix/prefix
Factory.....Importer.....Suffix/Prefix used, Serial Millions
26... B-West... ML 9m suffix
DB... B-West... BP 70m suffix
26... B-West... MZ 6m suffix
Unknown weird mini "c" stamp somewhere on receiver
Factory... importer... Serial millions
26... CSI ONT... 1.5m
216... Poly/PTK... 18m
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Well I tried to photograph....it seems my camera is certainly messed up in macro mode. I will have to get a new on once the refund arrives.
I have too many with letters not to play along though.
/26\ 10m suffix P - KSI Pomoma CA
/26\ 23m suffix K - Poly USA
/26\ 9m suffix M L - B-West
DB 70m suffix B P - B-West
/206\ 1.4m prefix C - CSI ONT
on another note..my /906\ has none at all and is also a CSI ONT importee. One might think it is back to the factory doing it due to that.
I wonder if there is a reason B-West used two letters (if they did it).
As haphazardly as they are usually aligned, it could just be a final inspection stamp...and the letters correspond to inspectors. Like Inspector 12 at the Hane's factory. :)
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The first SKS I ever owned... Poly USA ATL GA with an I suffix.
(http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/5f7972aacde0881f646ce5e642bfb2d4.jpg)
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Factory /26\, 10 mil
B-suffix
PTL INT'L ATL GA
We had a decent discussion about it here.
http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3818.0 (http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3818.0)
(https://i.imgur.com/epPP2lzl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2yyqmscl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/DGyFI9Zl.jpg)
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Factory /26\, 10 mil
B-suffix
PTL INT'L ATL GA
We had a decent discussion about it here.
http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3818.0 (http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3818.0)
M08.. I was trying more or less to get the overall consensus of the markings.. figuring what all markings there are, which rifles they are on, who imported them, maybe who exported them. And while there is good discussion... no one really decided to gather all the info and see what marks exists or what info is tied to other info such as factory or import stamps...
Interesting.. your example "B" has a broken stamp, while mine with the "B" does not seem to show the defect.
I've read/seen at some time or another in a multitude of various places the following reasons across the interweb for these oddball stamps:
Inspector stamps
A duplicate serial in China, a duplicate serial found in the US by the importer-- I don't buy this one.. unless... the original rifle was destroyed and remade, reusing the destroyed serial over... 25 million serials, and they duplicated serials..
A refurb mark.. each letter indicates a different refurb shop
A condition grade stamp or like an armory grading scale... could be done by the exporter or importer
A marking indicating a certain level of refurb was done.. A=1 replaced part, B=2 replaced parts
Even as an assignment ID for usage in China.. like A=security, B=police, etc...
The exporter used a letter suffix to designate which state side importer they were to be shipped too
And a few other reasons.... these are the ones that seem most logical and common all in the same ball park..some other reasons given were, well.. were out in the way left field....somewhere between the parking lot and porta-potties
Also.... one thing I have noticed.. in the little bit I looked into these letter marks..... it seems to follow spike bayonets.. the earlier bladed rifles must either be few and far between or they didn't get them.
Again....on duplicate serials, this is one I almost didn't add above.. your rifle for instance.. is a /26\ 10million.. if this serial were duplicated.. when, where and which factory would have duplicated that serial, how may other factories were up, running and producing these in 1965.. Thus far in the SKS Guide.. granted we don't know all the serials..nor have we access to every serial.. but, the serial range for 1965 /26\ 10million is 10,000,001 to "at least" 10,294,099, so that leaves a minimum of at least 700,000 other free serials to use.
Much like stoned_oli /26\ 11million.. which other factory made an 11million SKS. For /26\ 1966 the 11million series... 11,000,001 to at least 11,525,570 (This S/N range seems excessively long…something is going on here we don't fully understand!).... there is another 400,000+ of free serials to use.
So, there is at worst case, just between those 2 ranges, the above 10 and 11 million series alone, there is about a million free numbers to used by another factory. Thats even after giving almost 175,000 back for missed, already existing, unknown to us 10 and 11 million serials in those 2 ranges.
My most logical thought on duplicate serials...ok.... maybe it's an Ak, a Tokarev, or some other Chinese imported firearm at the time that shares a serial with the SKS.. but, I feel I'm even grasping at that... because...... Type 53 Mosins do overlap and quite possibly duplicate serials with the 2-6million SKSs, there is an example of 2 different rifles with the same serial ranges... and the 2-6 million SKSs typically do not have a suffix/prefix added that I've seen..nor do the imported Type 53s have suffix/prefix letters. And one could bleed that over into other arms and serial numbers.... for example.....Russia, how many Russian SKSs quite possibly share a serial number with a Mosin, a SVT-40, an AVT, AVS, TT-33, Nagant revolver or a PPSh-41..
Manufactures duplicate and reuse serials.... for instance... my 1908 Colt 25acp.. serial 231607....feel free to enter my serial here...https://www.colt.com/Customer-Services/Serial-Number-Lookup
That little handgun shares that very same serial with, it was even duplicated that same year:
1950
OFFICERS MODEL SPECIAL
1941
PEQUANO MODEL
1935
POLICE POSITIVE .32 & POLICE POSITIVE TARGET
1929
POLICE POSITIVE .38
1921
POLICE POSITIVE SPECIAL & DETECTIVE SPECIAL
1919
NEW SERVICE & SHOOTING MASTER & 1917
1919
1908 HAMMERLESS .25 My little Colt 25acp.. :)
1918
MODEL 1911 MILITARY
1916
1903 HAMMERLESS .32
1904
"NEW ARMY & NAVY MODELS 1892,94,95,96,1901 & 03"
1902
SINGLE ACTION ARMY & BISLEY REVOLVERS
1863
1849 POCKET (.36 CALIBER)
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It would be interesting to cross check all the complete serials in the database to determine if different factories used the same serial numbers. It seems likely most if any would be found in the 1.x Million series made across multiple factories that began after /26\ wasn't the only kid on the block. Even if they are within 100 or so of each other, it would seem likely they were duplicating numbers from factory to factory, while maintaining the date coding.
I kind of like the idea of specific replaced parts correlating to letters...you could be onto something. We may be able to relate to serial font differences on specific parts to stamped letters if we get enough data. It could also explain finding parts serialed to rifles that don't correspond to the norm for the time period (lightening cuts n such). Even if there is one part that seems scrubbed when others don't....it could be a replacement? If we find that the amount of letters used closely correspond to the amount of major components...that could make it worth the effort to discern what each letter might correspond to. Neither of the barreled receivers I have purchased had letters, indicating they might have been surplus parts exported without ever being refurbed....or even coming as complete parts guns.
I entertained the thought of them denoting specific areas of service, or perhaps even divisions in the military. But it would seem as if they would use a Chinese character to mark it so the average Chang could make sense of it. Like they did with Public Security rifles, DBs and DPs. The latter two seem as if they might have been for local 'militia' denotation...but the jury is still out on that, but it seems somewhat likely that is the case in my opinion. Plus, my DB has both a city stamp and two letters. :)
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I entertained the thought of them denoting specific areas of service, or perhaps even divisions in the military. But it would seem as if they would use a Chinese character to mark it so the average Chang could make sense of it. Like they did with Public Security rifles, DBs and DPs. The latter two seem as if they might have been for local 'militia' denotation...but the jury is still out on that, but it seems somewhat likely that is the case in my opinion. Plus, my DB has both a city stamp and two letters. :)
That is something else I pondered on.... why would they use a Latin alphabet letter prefix/suffix, when 9 times outta 10, they cant read it or make sense of it, or why would they even use a Latin letter when a Chinese letter would work, they have their own age old language/I guess one calls it an alphabet... the PS rifles have their own markings in Chinese.. What are the odds a normal Chinese field grunt would know what "B" or a "DP" was, short of he can't understand what it means.
I got nothing for DP and DB.... they could very well be just like the prefix/suffix and thats all....Me, just because that subject has been beat to death... I entertained the thought of a slightly amended Occam's razor theory on those 2 marks...a scientific and philosophical rule that "markings" should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.
In otherwords... sometimes, the simplest answer is the best..
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Ambitious undertaking. This is how mysteries get solved.
So, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse, and I no longer own the gun above...
... but here is my take on the only one I had.
1. The /26\ and B were applied before final polishing. 2. The Type 56 was stamped. Then the receiver was blued. 3. The serial number was applied last, and breaking through the bluing.
I studied this gun intently under the loupe and intense light before I sold it, and took some detailed macro pics. I may be out between the parking lot and porta-potties with this observation. But it is all I have!
Can we get detailed macro pics of other suffixes, to see if the above potential sequence could hold true?
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Ambitious undertaking. This is how mysteries get solved.
So, I was made an offer I couldn't refuse, and I no longer own the gun above...
... but here is my take on the only one I had.
1. The /26\ and B were applied before final polishing. 2. The Type 56 was stamped. Then the receiver was blued. 3. The serial number was applied last, and breaking through the bluing.
I studied this gun intently under the loupe and intense light before I sold it, and took some detailed macro pics. I may be out between the parking lot and porta-potties with this observation. But it is all I have!
Can we get detailed macro pics of other suffixes, to see if the above potential sequence could hold true?
I only have a question, maybe just an excess thought or two.. cause I am just that kinda guy.. :)
How did the importer stamp it and not break through the blue...
When one says someone breached the blueing with a stamp, this is what comes to my mind...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2xkjef4nywe0u6j/20171202_122446.jpg?dl=0)
Granted now.... I don't have macro shots of this specimen.. but this particular import stamp and serial both look to have at least a large percentage of blueing intact, while the added graffiti letters display bare white metal.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs.. I have wondered since I found out, could this just be the difference in a manual hammer stamp vs a roll stamp vs maybe a hydraulic hammer press.... one is fast, instant and variable, basically human controlled, while the latter is a slower, constant, repeatable pressure and mechanically controlled, and the last is just a slam and stamp that is hydraulic or even could be pneumatic.. Me, having been a mechanic for almost 30 years and feel I can control a hammer with the best of them, but, I don't even think my hammer blows are that exactingly consistent... much less after beating on something for hours on end... human fatigue will set in, the arm goes numb and hammer blows become wilder and even more varied as the fatigue gets worse, even well seasoned carpenters can suffer.. The hydraulic roll or hammer punch wont suffer, they just keep repeating and banging away, hour after hour, day after day.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2001/08/03/01-19418/identification-markings-placed-on-firearms-98r-341p
Most [member companies] roll the serial numbers and other information on to the gun. This method requires high forces to get the impressions deep enough. It requires 3/4 ton per 3/32-inch (.094) character to go 0.005 inches deep in mild steel and 1 ton in medium steel. Some companies do not now, and cannot go 0.005 inches deep with their current equipment. Should pressure be increased to obtain 0.005, unsafe deformation of the barrel and receiver can occur. Some companies use only laser etching to burn the required information into the firearm. This method does not lend itself to deep markings, * * * Laser capabilities vary in their ability to etch to 0.005 inch. Most company's laser engraving equipment cannot meet the proposed BATF depth requirement.
It would be difficult to get hammer strikes of even pressure everytime on every strike, where a hydraulic roll press is constant and a slow process that would allow the blueing to flex/stretch slightly with an imprint.. If the importer used a hydraulic hammer press for speed, then that would almost more duplicate a manual hammer and punch... Even if the importer used a laser etched import/serial wouldn't that just burn away blueing and show a white bare metal. Typically even dot matrix import stamps even display small amounts of white bare metal, guess basically, it's just a mini computer controlled hammer press.
In my way of thinking, what would or will displace more material.. a fast quick high intensity impact or a slower controlled impact, maybe China had different methods that were used for the final serial stamp vs. the factory stamp and Chinese charterers. Maybe a roll punch for the factory stamp and Type56 Chinese hashtags and a faster hammer press to bang in the serials..
As you point out...the serials are banged much deeper when compared to the factory/Chinese hashtags... different stamp methods, maybe different stamp methods for different components.. being much shallower could also explain why not near as much material is displaced.. maybe even a difference in separate press settings... one all mild and tame, the other a stamping maniac running wide open..
And I guess...it's a little too late since it's changed hands..... but, I kind of wish on your macro shots of your 10million(which are cool by the way).. if maybe you had went a step further and cleaned the years of grunge out of the actual serial numbers, then one could tell if at the bottom of the number stamp if white metal were showing..or was the blueing lining the full depth of the marks..
The "B" looks somewhat nice and clean, where that "6" has...uhm... years of ucky in it.. :)
(https://i.imgur.com/DGyFI9Zh.jpg)
I am not doubting or casting any one thought out.. it's more I guess one could call being the devils advocate and asking and covering everything and anything, no matter how ridiculous and off the wall, out of the park it may sound.
maybe now, I'm the one sitting in the porta-potty.. chuckles1
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I got nuthin :))
Pretty sure I have a few with letters including the 6m... which is a blade gun of course. Ill see if I can list them
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'MZ' after the serial on 6m, imported by B-West
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I have a 'C' all the way to the left..... prior to the /26\ What dat mean? :))
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/530328972.jpg)
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Agreed. We don't know the method for applying the stamps. But it is a good effort to document suffix, factory and importer to investigate possible patterns.
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I can say that I have never seen them on a bringback, or Banian, or non Chinese.
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Ok... M08, I diddled around with my 'Lil Tikes Tonka toy camera... this is what I was able to get for macro shots, it took like, well, I almost ran outta film....
What I wanted to see on yours, my clean numbers and the what looks like debris is oil residue with the blueing intact.. I used one of those loope things and saw no signs of bare metal at the bottom of the number strikes.. Also, I included part of an import stamp from macro, it also shows no signs of blueing revealing the bare metal underneath. It's raised enough to be felt as well.
Also.. the "C" is as raised as much as the numbers, so either it wasn't stamped before the polish, or they popped it after the polish and/or after the factory stamp/Type56 hashtag thing when they did the serial and the ... you can easily feel it in the metal surface. For reference, the import stamp is from the "C" stamped rifle.. and then maybe the whole thing was blued, filling the stamps with blueing.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/22hsykcoqc8knir/SAM_3204.JPG?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/y2soqcvxbnnebia/SAM_3207.JPG?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/y5cclr2h953y6iq/SAM_3203.JPG?dl=0)
I have a 'C' all the way to the left..... prior to the /26\ What dat mean? :))
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/530328972.jpg)
No clue LC.... a local shop has this one.. a /216\ 18million with that same weird mini "c" mark, between the Type56 hashtag and the serial.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/66cdisf59kqbqxq/CHINESE-SKS-7-62X39MM.JPG?dl=0)
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My 'C' stands for 'Chinaman'.
:)
Those are the only Chicoms I have with the mystery letters.
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'MZ' after the serial on 6m, imported by B-West
Cool....a third B-West with two a two letter suffix. Is there anything that seems obviously replaced on that one?
My DB from B-West had hardly anything original left so it is of little use, but my 64 spiker seems only to have had the stock replaced, although the stamping is a little off on the receiver cover. That one has M and L...if these are possible refurb stamps...which could explain bluing in them, which if they were refurbed, likely got reblued over the stamps indicating the replaced parts?
B-West being the only one so far that exhibits two letters does kind of put it back into the exporter/importer side of the court though. We need more data obviously. I seem to recall the norm being a single suffix letter, with the occasional prefix....which so far have all been Cs. Hmmm.
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That 6m was a bubba when I got it and has a couple mismatches.
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That 6m was a bubba when I got it and has a couple mismatches.
I imagine the original stock replaced with plastic? Or did it have a blank standard stock?
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Black Tupperware
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B-West being the only one so far that exhibits two letters does kind of put it back into the exporter/importer side of the court though. We need more data obviously. I seem to recall the norm being a single suffix letter, with the occasional prefix....which so far have all been Cs. Hmmm.
Hopefully RM has a bunch in his archive he can provide me with, when the poor guy gets a free moment. :)
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I own one of the /26\ 23 million rifles and three of the /26\ 24 million rifles. The 23 million has an "A" prefix. All three of the 24 million have a "D" prefix. All these are CSI ONT CA imported rifles.
I own a /156\ with SN 1611549 P (P Suffix) This rifle has the "West Coast Rail" or "Rail to Nowhere", as some called it. This one is a KSI POMONA CA import. Also, these are the rifles with the star stamped in front of the SN on the buttstock.
My /26\ 8 million CAI ST ALB, VT import, /26\ 11 million CJA SFLD, MI. import, and the /26\ 12 million N.A. Co. RIDGEFIELD, N.J. imported Cowboy Carbine all have no prefix or suffix.
My Chinese /416\ 公安 Public Security Rifle has no prefix or suffix. KFS ATL, GA import.
I only have a question, maybe just an excess thought or two.. cause I am just that kinda guy.. :)
How did the importer stamp it and not break through the blue...
When one says someone breached the blueing with a stamp, this is what comes to my mind...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/2xkjef4nywe0u6j/20171202_122446.jpg?dl=0)
Granted now.... I don't have macro shots of this specimen.. but this particular import stamp and serial both look to have at least a large percentage of blueing intact, while the added graffiti letters display bare white metal.
Just to throw in a little on the DIG imports with the added letters, I own a nice DIG import with the same import year of '91 but there are no added letters to any of the left side stampings. The SN is: 91 07114, and of course DIG, INC, VA BCH, VA import marked. If that helps to muddy the water any further. :)
(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/Chinese%20SKS%20imported%20by%20DIG/2016-01-31%20Chinese%20Type%2056%20SKS%20imported%20by%20DIG%20005_zps1hgrfemt.jpg)
Although, it does look like they had some trouble with the "M"s on 7.62x39MM...
(http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b436/firstchoice14/Chinese%20SKS%20imported%20by%20DIG/2016-01-31%20Chinese%20Type%2056%20SKS%20imported%20by%20DIG%20034_zpszyx2egnh.jpg)
The Beta Arms imported SKS-30's have no Prefix or Suffix, but they may not fall into the category you're looking at. I know they're new manufactured SKS, but they're considered "Commercial" right?
If you need pics of any of this, let me know.
firstchoice
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Can't find any mention of the "Q" letter prefix
(http://preview.ibb.co/iQZeMH/DSC03955.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nmBhac)
google picture sharing (http://imgbb.com/)
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Can't find any mention of the "Q" letter prefix
(http://preview.ibb.co/iQZeMH/DSC03955.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nmBhac)
google picture sharing (http://imgbb.com/)
Would like a shot of the importer or know who at least import stamped the rifle, and the factory info.. thumb1
The Beta Arms imported SKS-30's have no Prefix or Suffix, but they may not fall into the category you're looking at. I know they're new manufactured SKS, but they're considered "Commercial" right?
If you need pics of any of this, let me know.
firstchoice
FC....
I can not say for certain which will have a prefix/suffix.. the more info we can get, the better a determination we can make. But, what I "suspect", the letter prefix/suffix may not apply to newer made commercial variants, like the late rifles with year style, 90, 91, 92, 93 and 94 serial prefixes..... The one I could see being the exception to the commercial rifles, are ones converted from standard military issue to commercial, as these should retain their military style serial and factory markings.
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I have a NIB /26\ 10 Mil. Chinese SKS I think was made around 1965. Importer was PTL INT'L ATL GA If anyone has any info on what the A suffix stands for I would appreciate it.
(https://i.imgur.com/WDL2WmN.jpg?1)
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I have a NIB /26\ 10 Mil. Chinese SKS I think was made around 1965. Importer was PTL INT'L ATL GA If anyone has any info on what the A suffix stands for I would appreciate it.
(https://i.imgur.com/WDL2WmN.jpg?1)
That's still unknown. These letters were clearly applied after original production, but whether it was applied by the exporters before export from China, or by the importers in the US, for example, to ensure the serial number was unique to that particular importer, as required by US law, is uncertain.
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I think they were done in china either to allocate sets of guns to dif importers as they purchased them, or possibly by Chinese Armories designating a branch or large unit.
Better make sure division A don't get some of division Bs guns after a massive parade or field exercise.b
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Thanks for the reply, I've posed the question on different forums over the years and I pretty much got the same answer. I guess it will just have to remain an unknown for the time being.
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11 mil /26\ with an I-suffix
Poly USA import mark.
(https://i.imgur.com/usfYJyC.jpg)
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Has anyone checked under the stock? Mine has letters all over it. These rifles could have been outside China then brought back to China and then exported to the US. The Bayonet doesn't match the gun
(http://preview.ibb.co/k0mDxn/IMG_20180303_153038673.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mXNmHn)
(http://preview.ibb.co/dnu0cn/IMG_20180303_152956575.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eKUYxn)
(http://preview.ibb.co/b3GP3S/IMG_20180303_152811627_HDR.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m57WiS)
(http://preview.ibb.co/iwA1iS/IMG_20180303_152753097.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ioS3xn)
(http://preview.ibb.co/ibQqcn/IMG_20180303_152735837.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fYxQA7)
(http://preview.ibb.co/eZEGHn/IMG_20180303_152728245.jpg) (http://ibb.co/g7qqcn)
(http://preview.ibb.co/iuOXq7/IMG_20180303_152645626.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dd23xn)
(http://preview.ibb.co/bFcQA7/IMG_20180303_152636071.jpg) (http://ibb.co/m13bHn)
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How would the letters in question indicate they went somewhere out side of China, were reimported, then exported again?
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I've still been dabbling with this prefix/suffix mess for a while, on and off for the past few months, between hospitals, being stuck out of town working, so on and so forth................. pullhair1 think1
So I will throw this at the wall and see what sticks. RM, please forgive me, it has to come out. I just used a few rifles that came to mind in standing out while looking. It would be interesting to see what is reflected in the mass-o-pictures you have.
I'm starting to, now that I've seen quite a few, wonder if the serial suffix is not possibly a refurb/inspection/rebuild location or a rebuild identifier.... and has possibly nothing to do with the importer or exporter as a specific suffix/prefix can not be finger pointed to any one specific importer/exporter. It has been shown they welded, reground and reserialed rifles, maybe stamping was part of the refurb evolution in their methods.
Looking through the ones in this thread and pictures of ones I found elsewhere, it kind of dawned on me, they are usually all in very good shape, almost new'ish for their age, realistically, if you set aside the 30-40 years of dings, nicks and use from here in the US. Some in this very thread and others elsewhere are older rifles sporting the later blondish stocks and have the suffix, then you see the same serial series in the same ranges with finish loss and worn stocks, like the recent Albanian imports, the IC rifles and non-import marked/bringbacks there is none that had a prefix/suffix I could find. Another quirk.. the /2\ stock stamp seems to follow the serial suffix/prefix, not always, but seems thats were it shows up.
as example..... 2 10million /26\ rifles.... Same year built, 369335 rifles apart...even just looking at the metal finish, one is sporting that new "commercial" look, one is sporting the very well used "military" look, or as RM calls..."as issued". looking at stocks, the top rifle the stock is matching from what I saw, and I'm sure that finish color was not an overly common color used by /26\ in 1965, it's more like a finish you would see on late imported rifles..
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/lfifna7yloa2dqv/new26.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4wokamyd5biahzj/old%2026.jpg?dl=0)
If respective owners want them removed, please contact me and it shall be done.
Another example..M08's 11 million oil finish rifle(top) vs. a 12 million no import marked rifle(bottom).
(https://i.imgur.com/YnGv9wE.jpg)
(https://preview.ibb.co/izTS7R/DSCN0175.jpg)
Another... from M08's stash, (Sorry M08 for singling out you out) :)). All the same rifle.. With a "B" suffix and /2\ stock stamp. With this example.. it has had stock work done at some point which would account for the plugs/repairs in the wood. It could very well be a factory stock, a repaired factory stock, but it could be a replacement. Did the repaired stock warrant the "B" stamp because it had been repaired in some way? And ask yourself, Self, how often is an actual repaired stock seen, some rifles, the repairs are common place, but how many are seen on a Chinese SKS?
(https://i.imgur.com/2yyqmscl.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/2rGkOiLl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/FQo5LRql.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/PEdn4hwl.jpg)
Thoughts? Ideas? Lets hear it.... because this suffix/prefix mystery has hung in limbo for almost as many years as dating methods and such.
I just think it is somewhere in it's life, something was done..it could have been anything from a simple inspection or a full fledge rebuild.
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This does make some sense...
My 59 never, but built from a barreled receiver (no Norinco in import stamp)
My 64 spiker would have been rebuilt/serviced twice. M and L suffix came with blank orange stock
My 65 oil finish once, and has the /8\ stamp in the stock P suffix, came as new stuffed with cosmo
My 69 once came as a bubba C prefix
My other 69 built from a barreled reciever never (no Norinco)
My 70 DB...never
My 71 never? has stock repair but no stamp
My 72(?) never...but it is kind of a mystery even as to date. Built from scrubbed barreled receiver Has Norinco though.
My 78 once, but I restored it from bubba (This one is kind of a surprise to have a rebuild stamp...for a late carbine) K suffix
If the letters could be assigned to particular rebuild degrees or specific items (ie stocks) that are obviously done...especially to older weapons that had more time to be redone. Then again, they could be a particular location or even inspector's final stamp.
It may be difficult to attribute specific things to letters without a huge database of suffixed SKSs and specifics and/or pics included...to find obvious restocks, bluing too good to be true for the age, mismatched or scrubbed components that don't fit the era (ie bolt carriers) perhaps even the odd sight leaf with the wrong symbol for the era.
It is an interesting notion...and makes a lot of sense. My only hiccup with my collection that kind of is at odds with the theory is my 78.
It does make sense my 65 is just TOO new...why on earth would they make bazillions of them per year if they were able to just stockpile them for 30 years before it finding it's way to me...brand new? Especially when this was right before they deluge of 66s went to Vietnam? Seems anything just sitting around would be sent off as aid first wouldn't it? These imports from the heydey of importing them like you said had them whereas the new imports don't. You also don't and/or didn't seem to have sequential SKSs found in lots...I don't recall ever hearing of sequential Chinese. Perhaps they were MOSTLY refurbs, and that was practice in preparation for export? Right around the time Norinco was stamped across so many eras of SKSs... :P I find it interesting that all of my barreled receiver builds have no suffix...possibly indicating they arrived that way...and never went through a rebuild process before export. It would be interesting to see if perhaps the 64 spikers have rebuild letters that might indicate switching from blade to spike during an early rebuild process?
It is a notion that warrants further research for sure!
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On the one thing that makes particular rebuild degrees or specific items hard to judge...is the amount of swapping of parts and crap over the years, the bubbas back to normal and such, people who start swapping stuff in troubleshooting(ie my high cap duckbill or my Fleabay 20rd high cap don't work). Another issue, what if it was just spring, or gas piston or tube, how could you tell, the gas/tube piston is usually elctropenciled serialized anyway, a spring, well it's just a spring.
This would require pure unmolested specimens to fairly judge....... it would be pointless to use cobbled together rifles if looking for rebuild degrees vs letter.
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I have an all-matching rifle that's a P suffix. It's an arsenal 0136, 21M series, SN 2100(xxxX) P. It is actually a paratrooper with the receiver holes and stock cut indicating it had a rail to nowhere, and it is stamped, "KSI Pomona, CA"
Oh, hi - it's my first post here.
I also have a 3M series /26\, with the importer stamp of "MING LONG CO. NAPA CA". I noticed on the big list of importers that the list writer had never seen one of these. Mine came to me as a barrelled action which I've pieced back together into a shooter. It has a blade bayonet.
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I have an all-matching rifle that's a P suffix. It's an arsenal 0136, 21M series, SN 2100(xxxX) P. It is actually a paratrooper with the receiver holes and stock cut indicating it had a rail to nowhere, and it is stamped, "KSI Pomona, CA"
Oh, hi - it's my first post here.
I also have a 3M series /26\, with the importer stamp of "MING LONG CO. NAPA CA". I noticed on the big list of importers that the list writer had never seen one of these. Mine came to me as a barrelled action which I've pieced back together into a shooter. It has a blade bayonet.
Hey there. Welcome to the board!
It's actually Hing Long....I guess RM hasn't amended the listing since better examples have been seen. I assume you got that from Sarco....both of my barreled receivers that came from them were sporting Hing Long importer stamps. Cool you got a 3m from them....I got a 59 A series letter gun from them a couple years back. It was severely pitted, but still able to be brought back from the dead....although I am still looking for a proper stock for it. When I picked it up from my FFL, he felt so bad for it he didn't charge the transfer fee....whilst I am trying to keep the drool from being noticeable when I saw the serial. fart1
Since you found this thread I also assume you know your P doesn't stand for paratrooper. It would be more likely that it stood for pizza being for lunch that day in China. chuckles1
It would take some serious forensic research over many examples....but I lean towards the letters standing for various components replaced at refurbishment. Perhaps if a serial font was noticed to be different from the rest of a gun's serials on a trigger group for instance, all of which had a suffix of P, it would seem to indicate a replacement for that part. My only hope is that this board will endure long enough and locate enough evidence to 'prove' that hypothesis....or even reveal another. :)
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I have a suffix D to add to the pot. NORINCO CHINA POLY U.S.A. ATL. GA
I searched a few hours on the internet and found a similar serial number as mine on Gunbroker but the suffix is G3. Same exporter/importer. Both have the same serial number font with no factory marking. Like the ghost guns. Both serial numbers are stamped at a angle. The number 6 in both serial numbers look identical with a unique font. Any idea which factory made these?
(https://i.ibb.co/Gd62F6n/gb1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dfT27Tj)
(https://i.ibb.co/m8b0NDM/gb1a.png) (https://ibb.co/tXQzLmW)
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I have a Norinco, imported by Poly, USA, ATL, GA with arsenal stamp 636 and serial beginning with 16 (production date 1972?) that has a G5 suffix after the serial number.
(https://i.ibb.co/XWM0bnF/IMG-0717.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/3h0DVHc/IMG-0719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q1Rthwp)
(https://i.ibb.co/n8CjQZb/IMG-0720.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xk8tFNb)
I’ve never seen another SKS with that suffix.
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A year 16 Type 56 would be 1971 production. The ‘1956 + millions’ dating mode that is so prevalent around the web is incorrect.
G5 appears to be a common suffix. It must mean something particular. Perhaps one day we will figure out what.