Need help identifying!

[running-man]

OK, here's what I found:

Farthest left placement I could find:


Standard placement:


Moving right:


Moving quite a bit towards the right (though maybe not as far as the OP's gun):


Way off to the right, obviously restamped with the differences in the 1's:



Another restamp, the letter prefix is gone (should be an E) and replaced with a '0', /26\ is gone too:



Here's an M21 that I always assumed was an 'NA' prefix, I think now it's an 'NH' just like the OP's, unfortunately I have no piece part photos of this gun:


Other M21 NA's, the A's are clearly not part of the original S/N:

[martin08]

Here's an M21 that I always assumed was an 'NA' prefix, I think now it's an 'NH' just like the OP's, unfortunately I have no piece part photos of this gun:

Note:  The "M21 N" portion appears to have been struck before buffing and bluing.   All other numbers/letter H appear to have been struck after buffing and bluing.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Still appears to be struck much further to the right compared to any originally stamped letter gun.  I know serials from dif series other then letter guns are further right, but the only other pictured letter gun I see that far right is the scrubbed and reserialized gun.  More evidence the NA and N guns reused and restamped the original number and positioned it further right, seemingly a natural offset when adding the M21 N/NA.

I don't see what M08 is talking about... Maybe I'm missing something?

[martin08]

I'm saying that the M21 N/No/NA/NH is applied to a blank (new or scrubbed) receiver, and then buffed and blued.   The serial numbers are applied after.

This would have been common knowledge on a new production gun.  But I wanted to see if the rebuild guns exhibited the same application pattern.   Apparently, they do.

So, for a rebuild:

1.  Many receivers are scrubbed clean of original arsenal/serial, for the purpose of becoming M21.
2.  M21 N/NA/NH stamp is applied
3.  Receiver is buffed and reblued
4.  Serial number (quite possibly the same number which was scrubbed) is stamped through the reblue.

In other words, I was simply observing that the receiver markings were applied in two steps, instead of all at once, on guns which were rebuilt as M21.

Hope that clears up the mud?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Although its nearly impossible to discern the difference in fonts on an H other then the size due to its simplicity, RM has me convinced the H on both guns are part of the serial number making it a letter gun prior to becoming an m21. If thats the case, there is no 'new variation' of m21 here and we still have No, NA, and N.


Looking more closely at these two...





I can tell the m21 2 font is def different then the 2 in the serial, so I would tend to agree the M21 portion was added at a dif time then the serial number. 

Given all I have seen...  I find it hard to believe they would selectively seek out guns having a serial stamped abnormally far right like seen on both H examples, but perhaps thats just a fluke and partial image size and lense distance anamoly?

One thing I can say....  If thats a letter gun (scrubbed and reserialized or not), they were using existing serial numbers which means they are able to be dated.  The 'No' guns are likely 63/64, but if the N and NA fall before or after the No is anyones guess. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Basically, the NA and N guns have an existing serial (scrubbed and reapplied or not), and the original build date possible to determine. The No guns used new serials from an unused 26 serial block and still retain the year designator in typical chinese form.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Lets look at the 'No' serials...

M21 No 80128x, 80137x, 81018x, 90350x, 90476x, 90597x, 90708x, 91142x, 91611x, 91923x, 93431x, 94134x, 94237x, 94262x, 94361x, 94693x, 94901x, 94907x

Highlighted above is a clear indication that the total (# after the first) was reset to 00001 at the transition from 8 to 9.  The only time we see this with Chinese serialization practices is when it indicates a new production year.  I see this being absolutely no different then dating any other Chinese sks in that they clearly have a year designator as indicated by the first digit in this case an 8 and 9 (1963/1964). 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Now the 'N' variation numbers...

M21 N 00463x, 00553x, 01896x, 01959x

Why do thay all have useless zeros at the beginning?  Could this be because the number was scrubbed and reapplied and they had a need of some sort to leave spaces in reaction to any 6 digit gun coming across the rework table.... Like a 6 digi ghost or a 6 digi /26\?  Are we looking at the numbers above and actually seeing the 4 and 5 digit ghost numbers from its original birth? 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Now the 'NA' guns..

M21 NA 187x, 7536x


Its a super low datapool I know, but we at least can see there is no use of extra zeros. But the question remains...  Are these reapplied early serials?  If so, then # 187x was a soviet sino.

[Loose}{Cannon]

My crummy .02 worth...

The 'N' and 'Na' versions were first and consisted of reworked earlier guns reusing the original serial number and turned into an m21 circa 1962.

The the 'No' marked guns were standardized to Chinese serial practices utilising a year designator (63 and 64). Whether the serials were applied to newly produced guns or refurbished older guns.... No idea yet.

[636racer]

You guys are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks

[Loose}{Cannon]

Now the 'N' variation numbers...

M21 N 00463x, 00553x, 01896x, 01959x

Why do thay all have useless zeros at the beginning?  Could this be because the number was scrubbed and reapplied and they had a need of some sort to leave spaces in reaction to any 6 digit gun coming across the rework table.... Like a 6 digi ghost or a 6 digi /26\?  Are we looking at the numbers above and actually seeing the 4 and 5 digit ghost numbers from its original birth?

Pretty OCD when you start quoting yourself.   

Another thing to consider...  Are these 'N' versions all having atleast one extra prefixing 0 simply another way of stamping the 'No' variation?  Not enough underlined 0 stamps to go around?  Broke the only stamp available? 

[Power Surge]

Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??

[spongemonkey]

Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??

http://chinesesks.weebly.com/early-m21.html

http://chinesesks.weebly.com/late-m21.html

The best I could come up with even though the M21 designation is not defined or explained.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I'm guessing nobody knows other then it's stamped on the rifle.   

It is common however for small arms to be issued an 'M' designator by western civilizations for 'military'....  M14, M16, M249, M240, M203, AKM, but I have no idea why 1960s China would use it. 

Maybe its Cyrillic... You know... Shows the Ruskies were there and stuffs. 

[running-man]

Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??

The fact that they have M20's, M21's, and M22's for PMs, SKSs, and AKs would lead me to believe that the # wasn't specifically pulled for each firearm for any preconcieved reason.  Just some random number starting from somewhere (1, 10, 20?) I'd think.  I'd bet RPGs, heavy machine guns, maybe even vehicles have their own M numbers as well.

[Power Surge]

Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??

The fact that they have M20's, M21's, and M22's for PMs, SKSs, and AKs would lead me to believe that the # wasn't specifically pulled for each firearm for any preconcieved reason.  Just some random number starting from somewhere (1, 10, 20?) I'd think.  I'd bet RPGs, heavy machine guns, maybe even vehicles have their own M numbers as well.

Well, that's the question, of course. It's an SKS rifle. But that's what WE know it as. Jianshe called it a Type56. And the three chinese letters on the Jianshe rifles, starting with 1961. We know there were other arsenals around the mid 60s. We suspect that the early M21s were built in the early to mid 60s. Therefore it's very possible the M21s were built by another arsenal, and that this arsenal called them M21s, instead of Type56s, as a model name. Just like an SKS93 and an SKSNR are the same rifle, with two different model names. There's also no "type56" characters on an M21. Even on the late M21s...people say they are pretty much the same rifle as the 23/24 Jianshe rifle. But if they were both suspected built at Jianshe, then why do you need two models of the identical rifle? I'm betting 296/0296 is a separate arsenal from 26, that elected to call their SKS am M21, instead of a Type56.

That's my best guess.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Except....  We see clear evidence of scrubbed earlier guns, and only /26\ was producing the sks at this time frame.  We know where the letter guns were made.