SKS-FILES FORUM
SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => General SKS Discussion => Topic started by: 636racer on May 14, 2017, 05:57:24 PM
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Hi guys,
I am looking at buying a SKS but I'm having some trouble decoding the SN. It's listed as 2M21NH4388. Any idea what the 2 before the M21 or the NH after mean?
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It sounds like you have an early M21 gun, but that serial configuration is odd. Can you post a pic of the serial?
Here's a link to the early M21...
http://chinesesks.weebly.com/early-m21.html
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(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/636racer/IMG_3331_zpsdxickz1r.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/636racer/media/IMG_3331_zpsdxickz1r.jpg.html)
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/636racer/IMG_3334_zpsegsf7oq2.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/636racer/media/IMG_3334_zpsegsf7oq2.jpg.html)
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/636racer/IMG_3333_zps7ctqyg2z.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/636racer/media/IMG_3333_zps7ctqyg2z.jpg.html)
(http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u369/636racer/IMG_3332_zps74qi3cay.jpg) (http://s1064.photobucket.com/user/636racer/media/IMG_3332_zps74qi3cay.jpg.html)
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Definitely looks like an early "N" M21, I've just never seen one with a serial following like that.
RM will be the one to chime in on this one, me thinks.
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Yes yes... Lets wait for RM. :P
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Oh what the heck... RM is like molasses. :))
Its the standard 'N' version early M21. The other letters were added sometime after the gun was produced, and usually by either the exporter or an importer (depending on what notion you subscribe to)
I have seen this version imported.... Can you post a pic of the import stamp?
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Thanks guys. I don't have the gun yet, just trying to do some research before I get it. The import stamp is on the rear of the receiver? I'm still new to the SKS's.
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Could be anywhere.... An importer could have stamped at least 150 guns in the amount of time it takes RM to post. He must be writing a novel.
rofl
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Could be anywhere.... An importer could have stamped at least 150 guns in the amount of time it takes RM to post. He must be writing a novel.
rofl
So, you are saying the RM "runs" at a very, very, very. slow pace? :o ;) chuckles1
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Haha. I'll see if I can have the guy find any more marks on it. He said he couldn't them the first time. I may just have to wait until I get it this weekend.
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(Sorry, family came over for Mother's day dinner.)
Neat gun. I'd say this one is a '59/'60 Letter gun that has been refurbished into an M21 for official government export. The H4388 is the original S/N and should be stamped on any of the remaining original piece parts; the font is perfect for a letter gun. There may be the remnants of a /26\ stamping to the right and slightly below the S/N on the receiver but sometimes they scrubbed those completely though. This rifle would have been built with a long barrel lug, blade bayo, early FSB, early bolt carrier, one piece gas tube, and side swivel stock. Hard to say how many components are still original though.
The 2 is a commonly used prefix when letter guns were refurbished. We see the 2A1234 format on many letter guns. The 'M21 N' is one of the three common ways of designating an M21 rifle. They also used 'M21 No' and 'M21 N0'.
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I would have to respectfully disagree. Although its thought these early M21 guns were produced around the same timeframe or shortly after the letter series which would explain the same serial font..... This clearly has the serial shifted far to the the right from any other Chinese letter series I have ever seen.
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/606830199.jpg)
(http://rs1064.pbsrc.com/albums/u369/636racer/IMG_3331_zpsdxickz1r.jpg?w=480&h=480&fit=clip)
There may be the remnants of a /26\ stamping to the right and slightly below the S/N on the receiver but sometimes they scrubbed those completely though
This would also be in the wrong position etc. However, there is the possibility the serial was simply reapplied after the scrub but it would have you wonder why remove it in the first place. I also would find it hard to believe they would selectively scrub the 26 and not the serial.... But we know the serial is in the wrong location for a letter gun anyhow so.....
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Might very well be. Lemme gin up some comparison photos tomorrow morning and we'll see what we can tease out. thumb1
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Might very well be. Lemme gin up some comparison photos tomorrow morning and we'll see what we can tease out. thumb1
I've just never seen a letter series serial placed that far right. Its still possible I guess the entire serial and 26 was scrubbed and the serial only was reused. It really comes down to whats on the rest of the parts.
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My first observation was that it looked like a letter gun, with the M21 added. But, I agree with LC about the serial location. It's way to far over to the right to be a letter gun.
Now, we date these rifles to the "early 60s" according to the guide. So is it possible that this could be an M21 built in 1960? If so, then it would make sense that it's got a letter designated serial after the M21 N.
But then, that raises another question.... it's long lug, but has a spike bayo. According to the guide, only one year had that, and that was 64. Now, they could have used long lugs on these guns after stopping using them on regular production, but it would still have to be after 64 if the spike is original. I think we need to see more detailed pics to verify the bayo.
Just food for thought.
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To elaborate on my thinking here...
The 'No' version serials are far too clean having all been observed starting with an 8 and 9. This screams new production early M21s with year designators of 1963 and 1964. The main issue I have always had in breaking the 'N' and 'NA' variations serial code is they are not clean, although they are all low serials having 4-5 digits. If the gun in the OP does indeed have an H prefix on the other metal components, this would tell me it is as RM stated a refurbed letter series gun. BUT, that receiver serial number being placed that far to the right and having no /26\ stamp also tells me that the original serial and arsenal was scrubbed and the serial only reapplied along with the M21 designation.
Whats this mean? Basically the 'N' and NA' variations may very well all be refurbished guns having the 26 scrubbed and the original serial reapplied. Looking at our list, the (until now) confusing scattered serials of these guns look like refurbed early ghost guns and now a letter gun.
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Cannon needs ALOT of close pics of this carbine. :))
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The "M21" font on the one above is different than on a No 8.
(http://i.imgur.com/wltjnw7l.jpg)
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Because I don't think the No 8xxxxx is a scrubbed gun. thumb1
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Yes. Scrubbed vs new applied.
Hmm.....
Just as a matter of nuance when analyzing the serial number application, I'll post pics of my other two M21 No serials. Note that the prefix appears to be applied before buffing and bluing, and the serial sequence cuts through the bluing, with ridges and ghosting.
Wondering if the scrubbed/redesignated guns have the entire sequence applied after rebluing?
(http://i.imgur.com/jZPI6DOl.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/Gu1f6Gdl.jpg)
And another note. The M21 font is different between No 8 and 9
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OK, here's what I found:
Farthest left placement I could find:
(http://image.ibb.co/jidXRk/F2213_receiver.jpg)
Standard placement:
(http://image.ibb.co/fK1xsQ/H4335_receiver.jpg)
Moving right:
(http://image.ibb.co/nOnsRk/I0830_receiver.jpg)
Moving quite a bit towards the right (though maybe not as far as the OP's gun):
(http://image.ibb.co/fzB8z5/2_I9492_receiver.jpg)
Way off to the right, obviously restamped with the differences in the 1's:
(http://image.ibb.co/kyZ6mk/H3311_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/enVCRk/H3311_magazine.jpg)
Another restamp, the letter prefix is gone (should be an E) and replaced with a '0', /26\ is gone too:
(http://image.ibb.co/e4sgK5/E6839_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/kzZHsQ/E6839_magzine.jpg)
Here's an M21 that I always assumed was an 'NA' prefix, I think now it's an 'NH' just like the OP's, unfortunately I have no piece part photos of this gun:
(http://image.ibb.co/fRpssQ/NX1873_receiver.jpg)
Other M21 NA's, the A's are clearly not part of the original S/N:
(http://image.ibb.co/eUxqe5/NA72979_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/dihqe5/NA75363_receiver.jpg)
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Here's an M21 that I always assumed was an 'NA' prefix, I think now it's an 'NH' just like the OP's, unfortunately I have no piece part photos of this gun:
(http://image.ibb.co/fRpssQ/NX1873_receiver.jpg)
Note: The "M21 N" portion appears to have been struck before buffing and bluing. All other numbers/letter H appear to have been struck after buffing and bluing.
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Still appears to be struck much further to the right compared to any originally stamped letter gun. I know serials from dif series other then letter guns are further right, but the only other pictured letter gun I see that far right is the scrubbed and reserialized gun. More evidence the NA and N guns reused and restamped the original number and positioned it further right, seemingly a natural offset when adding the M21 N/NA.
I don't see what M08 is talking about... Maybe I'm missing something?
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I'm saying that the M21 N/No/NA/NH is applied to a blank (new or scrubbed) receiver, and then buffed and blued. The serial numbers are applied after.
This would have been common knowledge on a new production gun. But I wanted to see if the rebuild guns exhibited the same application pattern. Apparently, they do.
So, for a rebuild:
1. Many receivers are scrubbed clean of original arsenal/serial, for the purpose of becoming M21.
2. M21 N/NA/NH stamp is applied
3. Receiver is buffed and reblued
4. Serial number (quite possibly the same number which was scrubbed) is stamped through the reblue.
In other words, I was simply observing that the receiver markings were applied in two steps, instead of all at once, on guns which were rebuilt as M21.
Hope that clears up the mud?
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Although its nearly impossible to discern the difference in fonts on an H other then the size due to its simplicity, RM has me convinced the H on both guns are part of the serial number making it a letter gun prior to becoming an m21. If thats the case, there is no 'new variation' of m21 here and we still have No, NA, and N.
Looking more closely at these two...
(https://i.imgur.com/jZPI6DO_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high)
(https://i.imgur.com/Gu1f6Gd_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high)
I can tell the m21 2 font is def different then the 2 in the serial, so I would tend to agree the M21 portion was added at a dif time then the serial number.
Given all I have seen... I find it hard to believe they would selectively seek out guns having a serial stamped abnormally far right like seen on both H examples, but perhaps thats just a fluke and partial image size and lense distance anamoly?
One thing I can say.... If thats a letter gun (scrubbed and reserialized or not), they were using existing serial numbers which means they are able to be dated. The 'No' guns are likely 63/64, but if the N and NA fall before or after the No is anyones guess.
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Basically, the NA and N guns have an existing serial (scrubbed and reapplied or not), and the original build date possible to determine. The No guns used new serials from an unused 26 serial block and still retain the year designator in typical chinese form.
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Lets look at the 'No' serials...
M21 No 80128x, 80137x, 81018x, 90350x, 90476x, 90597x, 90708x, 91142x, 91611x, 91923x, 93431x, 94134x, 94237x, 94262x, 94361x, 94693x, 94901x, 94907x
Highlighted above is a clear indication that the total (# after the first) was reset to 00001 at the transition from 8 to 9. The only time we see this with Chinese serialization practices is when it indicates a new production year. I see this being absolutely no different then dating any other Chinese sks in that they clearly have a year designator as indicated by the first digit in this case an 8 and 9 (1963/1964).
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Now the 'N' variation numbers...
M21 N 00463x, 00553x, 01896x, 01959x
Why do thay all have useless zeros at the beginning? Could this be because the number was scrubbed and reapplied and they had a need of some sort to leave spaces in reaction to any 6 digit gun coming across the rework table.... Like a 6 digi ghost or a 6 digi /26\? Are we looking at the numbers above and actually seeing the 4 and 5 digit ghost numbers from its original birth?
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Now the 'NA' guns..
M21 NA 187x, 7536x
Its a super low datapool I know, but we at least can see there is no use of extra zeros. But the question remains... Are these reapplied early serials? If so, then # 187x was a soviet sino.
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My crummy .02 worth...
The 'N' and 'Na' versions were first and consisted of reworked earlier guns reusing the original serial number and turned into an m21 circa 1962.
The the 'No' marked guns were standardized to Chinese serial practices utilising a year designator (63 and 64). Whether the serials were applied to newly produced guns or refurbished older guns.... No idea yet.
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You guys are a wealth of knowledge. Thanks
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Now the 'N' variation numbers...
M21 N 00463x, 00553x, 01896x, 01959x
Why do thay all have useless zeros at the beginning? Could this be because the number was scrubbed and reapplied and they had a need of some sort to leave spaces in reaction to any 6 digit gun coming across the rework table.... Like a 6 digi ghost or a 6 digi /26\? Are we looking at the numbers above and actually seeing the 4 and 5 digit ghost numbers from its original birth?
Pretty OCD when you start quoting yourself. bat1
Another thing to consider... Are these 'N' versions all having atleast one extra prefixing 0 simply another way of stamping the 'No' variation? Not enough underlined 0 stamps to go around? Broke the only stamp available?
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Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??
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Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??
http://chinesesks.weebly.com/early-m21.html
http://chinesesks.weebly.com/late-m21.html
The best I could come up with even though the M21 designation is not defined or explained.
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I'm guessing nobody knows other then it's stamped on the rifle. :)
It is common however for small arms to be issued an 'M' designator by western civilizations for 'military'.... M14, M16, M249, M240, M203, AKM, but I have no idea why 1960s China would use it.
Maybe its Cyrillic... You know... Shows the Ruskies were there and stuffs. rofl
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Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??
The fact that they have M20's, M21's, and M22's for PMs, SKSs, and AKs would lead me to believe that the # wasn't specifically pulled for each firearm for any preconcieved reason. Just some random number starting from somewhere (1, 10, 20?) I'd think. I'd bet RPGs, heavy machine guns, maybe even vehicles have their own M numbers as well.
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Soooooo.....has anyone EVER been able to determine what "m21" references??
The fact that they have M20's, M21's, and M22's for PMs, SKSs, and AKs would lead me to believe that the # wasn't specifically pulled for each firearm for any preconcieved reason. Just some random number starting from somewhere (1, 10, 20?) I'd think. I'd bet RPGs, heavy machine guns, maybe even vehicles have their own M numbers as well.
Well, that's the question, of course. It's an SKS rifle. But that's what WE know it as. Jianshe called it a Type56. And the three chinese letters on the Jianshe rifles, starting with 1961. We know there were other arsenals around the mid 60s. We suspect that the early M21s were built in the early to mid 60s. Therefore it's very possible the M21s were built by another arsenal, and that this arsenal called them M21s, instead of Type56s, as a model name. Just like an SKS93 and an SKSNR are the same rifle, with two different model names. There's also no "type56" characters on an M21. Even on the late M21s...people say they are pretty much the same rifle as the 23/24 Jianshe rifle. But if they were both suspected built at Jianshe, then why do you need two models of the identical rifle? I'm betting 296/0296 is a separate arsenal from 26, that elected to call their SKS am M21, instead of a Type56.
That's my best guess.
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Except.... We see clear evidence of scrubbed earlier guns, and only /26\ was producing the sks at this time frame. We know where the letter guns were made.