SKS-FILES FORUM
Miscellaneous => Ammunition, Reloading, and Range Reports => Ammunition => Topic started by: Blicero on November 06, 2014, 05:30:55 PM
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I was cleaning out my gun room, sorting out some ammo, when I realized I had a veritable melting pot of different nations' 8mm Mauser. It's like the gotdanged United Nations in my ammo can. I packed it all up along with some of my favorite 8mm bangsticks and took them to the range to do a little ammo compare/contrast. Here's how it all went down. The lineup:
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6561_zps4f32101f.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6561_zps4f32101f.jpg.html)
From left to right we have Pre-WW2 German, Romanian, Turkish, 50's Yugo, Ecuadorian, old American reloads, Yugo m75, and finally some old Egyptian crap.
All of the following results came from the Lubecker k98k.
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EGYPT
Aside from being generally repulsed by anything pertaining to African, Middle Eastern, or Islamic culture, this ammo is the reason why I got out of the Helwan, FN49, Rasheed and Hakim game. If I can't trust the Egyptians to make reliable, safe, consistent and good ammo, why should I trust them to do it with their firearms?
Pure and simple, this is crap ammo. Hang fires are one thing, but having enough time to eat a sandwich between click and ignition is another. I mean, as I type this, I'm still waiting for some of this Egyptian junk ammo to go off. That's what you can consistently expect from it.
Here's what it registered on the chronograph:
2351 fps (struck thrice, hang fire)
2393 (hang fire)
2424
2469
2329 (hang fire)
It's pretty tough to keep the sights on target for 9 seconds waiting for the hang fires to go off, so I figured this group would be all over the map. It turned out to be the best group of the day:
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6568_zps2c5a81dd.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6568_zps2c5a81dd.jpg.html)
Thinking this must be a fluke, I loaded up another 10 shots and chrono'd 5 of them:
2413 fps
2322
2357 (hang fire)
2444 (struck twice, hang fire)
2384 (hang fire)
I was right, it was a fluke. The groups were scattered, as expected, with no particular rhyme or reason to them, about 6-8". Basic shotgun patterns...
Verdict: This ammo is great if you enjoy the terrifying and exhilarating experience of hang fires, or enjoy playing the popular quiz show called Will It Go Off? Stay away from it.
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TURKEY (head stamped T C / 1943 / FS / 7.9)
Sometimes you'll come across some Turkish 8mm that did not survive the test of time, it will look nasty and corroded and downright unshootable. But the stuff I have looks great- clean, almost looks brand new. I don't think I've ever shot this ammo before, all three of my bandoleers were packed to the brim with clips.
I shot 5 rounds, realized I whiffed the paper high, and shot 5 more giving it a 6 o'clock hold:
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6569_zpsa6d56385.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6569_zpsa6d56385.jpg.html)
Here's what it registered on the chrono:
2868 fps
2882
2855
2919
2826
2802
2975
2906
2821
2724
Verdict: Obviously, this is some hot stuff, pushing the limit of the round. It all went off smoothly and without duds or hangs. I was irked that I whiffed the paper, but stuff happens. I bet with some tweaking and practice, this could be good accurate surplus ammo. I wish I had more of it.
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ECUADOR (head stamped 7.92 A 1955 A)
I've never shot this Ecuadorian ammo before. I read mixed reviews about it, some people gripe about duds and hangs while others say it's great stuff.
Again, I whiffed the paper with the first 5. I knew I was missing far to the right (weird!), so I loaded up 5 more and held off about 3" left of 9'oclock:
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6570_zpsd066eb57.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6570_zpsd066eb57.jpg.html)
Not a bad group for iron sights, a 70-yr old rifle and surplus ammo, in my opinion. The strong headwinds weren't helping my cause either. Here's what it read on the chrono:
2477 fps
(error)
2481
(error)
2488
2647
2442
2455
2555
2637
Quite the large range in velocity!
Verdict: Decent ammo, from what I can tell. No duds, no misfires, no hangs. My only gripe is my k98 did not like extracting these rounds. Right at the top of cocking the bolt while opening it, it would get a bit sticky and rough, highly out of character for this eternally silky k98. The case heads look ok but the edge of the necks came out with a flattened and rough edge, if that tells you anything. I want to blame that on the fact that these rounds were probably meant for machine guns. I don't think Ecuador ever issued Mausers in 8mm.
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Romania (head stamped 22 72)
This is the 8mm I recommend to everyone, it's the stuff I shoot with the most regularity. I've found that different lots of it will be vastly different in terms of where it shoots, but each individual lot will be consistent in where it hits. For example- I just killed a tin of it last week. All of it shot to POA @ 100 yards with regularity. I cracked open a new tin for this shooting session and here's where it shot:
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6578_zps9cfdf296.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6578_zps9cfdf296.jpg.html)
That's a good 4" up & right. I shot another group and it did the exact same thing. Here's what the Romanian registered on the chrono:
2651 fps
2590
2637
2595
2636
2666
2583
2579
2623
2660
Ah crap. I just got yelled at to go start dinner. I'll finish this later. Damn, I'm more whipped than Runningman.
Here are a couple other shots I snagged. My partner shooting the Bambi blasting Spanish Mauser carbine and my G43 looking like the glorious cocky monster it is.
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6563_zps989a6929.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6563_zps989a6929.jpg.html)
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6565_zps3a633845.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6565_zps3a633845.jpg.html)
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EGYPT
Aside from being generally repulsed by anything pertaining to African, Middle Eastern, or Islamic culture, this ammo is the reason why I got out of the Helwan, FN49, Rasheed and Hakim game. If I can't trust the Egyptians to make reliable, safe, consistent and good ammo, why should I trust them to do it with their firearms?
So, what did you do with your Egyptian guns?… Hey, wait a minute! timeout >:(
You're dead wrong about the SAFN49 by the way, Belgian made, quality that makes that G43 look like a Jimenez. You just had an aversion to arabic writing on that Egyptian contracted gun you had! Maybe a Luxembourg contract 30-06 would float your boat a bit better…
Ah crap. I just got yelled at to go start dinner. I'll finish this later. Damn, I'm more whipped than Runningman.
Hey now, let's get this straight. "I" make all the decisions in my household! "I" just have to ask permission to make them first! rofl2
I've got some ammo that you didn't mention including some '48-'49 Greek that is amazingly sweet stuff! Lemme see what I can round up since I don't shoot anything anyway. Maybe we can get you to add them into your comparison and you could actually produce something useful around here! chuckles1
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I knew I could get you wound up with both of those comments :P
Comparing the g43, produced hastily in Hail Mary efforts in factories that were getting bombed in wartime, to the peacetime fn49 is a bit of a stretch, but I see your point. My 49s were decently made and served me well. Calling it an Egyptian gun may be a stretch though. But it only furthers my point that African guns are trash. And if the Egyptians maintained their FN49s as poorly as they maintained their ammo and their Hakims, does it really matter what nationality the gun's origins are? The finest of finely manufactured machinery is reduced to brittle junk if neglected, abused, and unmaintained.
I guess xenophobia or ethnocentrism can get the better of me. I can see why my dad calls me Archie Bunker. But I yam what I yam, Popeye. Lately I've become wary of the power in front of my face rocking the bolt, barrel & receiver upon firing. I want to, have to, trust the people who made the gun. I just can't say that about too many countries. I'd prefer to keep my face.
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I don't know about your Xenaphilia being a problem...I mean who doesn't like the warrior princess rofl
Anyhow, that's a nice comparison. That Turkish ammo is definitely hot stuff. Were the bullets the same mass in all cases? Would like to see some Yugo M75 ammo thrown in there too (along with Joe's HXP). I may have to order some of that Romanian. Looks to be the most consistent ammo in regard to velocity.
Turkey Ecuador Egyptian Romania
2868 2477 2351 2651
2882 2393 2590
2855 2481 2424 2637
2919 2469 2595
2826 2488 2329 2636
2802 2647 2413 2666
2975 2442 2322 2583
2906 2455 2357 2579
2821 2555 2444 2623
2724 2637 2384 2660
2858 2523 2389 2622 Average
70 81 49 33 StDev
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I love the Romanian stuff. It always goes off, never a dud, never a hang. And in my experience it's been the most accurate 8mm I've ever shot, and I can see why, with that narrow velocity range.
I only shot 5 rounds of the Yugo m75. I wasn't particularly awed by the group, it was probably around 6". Along with the older '50's Yugo ammo, this is obviously the softest load of any of them. It clocked in at:
2400 fps
2385
2391
2423
2385
1953 Yugo:
2404
2384
2391
2416
2374
2354
2477
2440
2302
2465
I have a lot of experience with the Yugo ammo. Sometimes it can be a bit finicky about needing two strikes, and maybe one in 20 will hang fire. Today was all gravy though. It didn't group particularly well- 6" and 8". I'm tempted to blame the Indian there and not the arrow, Cochise.
Just for fun, I was able to clock some rounds on the G43 before my buddy commandeered the Chrony.
The G43 Romanian group:
2545 fps
2618
2595
2604
2551
G43 Egyptian:
2287 fps
2314
2343
2326
2333
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Very cool 8) I love data :) I think I need a chronograph :))
Fascinating stuff Kevin. Thanks for doing this thumb1
The M75 had the best SD but with a smaller sample size so a bit of additional spread might be expected for 10 shots. Of course consistent velocity is just one factor of many affecting precision. I'm definitely impressed by the performance of the Romanian ammo.
The Romanian and Egyptian were very consistent in regard to velocity in the two very different rifles.
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison.jpg.html)
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No hangfires when you ran the Egyptian hummus through the G43? It looks like it might of liked it chuckles1
...not that I'd trust it given it's abysmal performance in the K98 fart1
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Way ta go Blicero, thanks. Do you still have an FN49? I had an opportunity to buy one (.30-06) in great condition for $45 when I was a dumb-arse teenager. I have regretted not dropping those bills for that rifle ever since!
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Very cool 8) I love data :) I think I need a chronograph :))
Laugh Jon!!! I thought both of these things as I've been perusing this thread!
It amazes me that 71 year old Turkish is still pushing darn near 3000 fps!!! I've got some late '50s era Turkish 8mm, I wonder if Turkish simply has low age degradation or if we'd see a distinct difference in 10 year newer ammo?
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The best surplus 8mm ammo IMHO is the 1970's Yugo.
I'm down to 2 full 900 round crates and a third about half gone.
Really wish I had more. Vastly better (more accurate) than the 1950's stuff.
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Guys I've never looked into these things but I'm assuming (:o) there was no surviving German surplus ammo after WWII? Or what little there might have been has been shot up by now.
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The best surplus 8mm ammo IMHO is the 1970's Yugo.
I'm down to 2 full 900 round crates and a third about half gone.
Really wish I had more. Vastly better (more accurate) than the 1950's stuff.
:o I only have about 10% of your 8mm stores
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I had to dump the Fn49s when I could find neither chrysanthemum, bomb ordnance stamp, or waffenamt on any of them. I had to fuel the WW2 addiction somehow.
That first box on the left is German prewar ammo, made in Lubeck, same town as the k98 I was shooting. I didn't shoot it though. I get the feeling it's valuable. I never quite could wrap my noodle around cartridge collecting. It's sort of like collecting bicycle handle bars or classic car steering wheels- they're just small random pieces that make the actual collectible useful. I still think I'm going to keep this German box intact though. You can get wartime German ammo for a buck a round, maybe less, I don't know, that's way above my pay grade when it comes to ammo.
Nice work Jon, thanks for the visual aid, so much more accessible than my messy arrangement of numbers. The G43 ate up the Egyptian stuff sans hiccups. Knock wood praise Shiva.
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I have to spend some more time with the m75. With consistency like that, one of my rifles is bound to love that ammo.
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I have a box of German 8mm with swastikas on the box and tiny ones on the headstamp of each round... I should have you identify.
Great thread/post Kevin.... good stuff.
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I have a box of German 8mm with swastikas on the box and tiny ones on the headstamp of each round... I should have you identify.
Great thread/post Kevin.... good stuff.
Pictures, I'd like to see that? :P
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Wont be home until about tues... Ill have to get some pics.
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Widener's shows the Romanian light ball ammo as 150gr but J&G lists it as 154gr. Turkish appears to be 154gr from internet info. The M75 and standard Yugoslavian 8mm is the typical heavy ball weight at 196gr. In any case the calculated ballistic energies are shown below in Fig. 2.
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8mmballisticenergy.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8mmballisticenergy.jpg.html)
That Turkish stuff is hot no matter how you slice it :o 112% of the energy of the Yugo sniper ammo. The Romanian has 94% of the energy of the Yugoslavian assuming the heavier weight of 154gr
Since there isn't a suitable *geek* smiley... geezer1
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Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: loser1
Kevin, I've got:
- '51 Turkish (I know I have newer Turkish, I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!)
- '39 Greek (PCH headstamp)
- '51 Iranian (not the crown headstamped stuff that people are having issues with, though everywhere I read pans this stuff badly...)
- and finally some gorgeous 1999 PPU produced 'sniper' M75.
for you to test out in that same K98 (if you would be so kind :) )
Package going out today hopefully.
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Hey Danny, I don't have any old 8mm Mauser cartridges but at the risk of evoking the wrath of Dominus Blicero rofl here are some pictures of 8x56R cartridges for the M95 Steyr manufactured in Nov. '38 after the Austrian Anschluss (March '38) and hence Nazi stamped (I dont' even have an M95 but I got a few boxes of this stuff in a random lot of old ammo) ???
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocandbox.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocandbox.jpg.html)
Nazi eagle stamps on enbloc clips
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocstamp.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocstamp.jpg.html)
Headstamps
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56headstamp.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56headstamp.jpg.html)
Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: loser1
I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!
Good smiley info, thanks Joe :)
Re the misplaced ammo: :o
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Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: loser1
Kevin, I've got:
- '51 Turkish (I know I have newer Turkish, I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!)
- '39 Greek (PCH headstamp)
- '51 Iranian (not the crown headstamped stuff that people are having issues with, though everywhere I read pans this stuff badly...)
- and finally some gorgeous 1999 PPU produced 'sniper' M75.
for you to test out in that same K98 (if you would be so kind :) )
Package going out today hopefully.
Really?
Well OK then.
FREE AMMO! In the name of science.
banana time
I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.
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Really?
Well OK then.
FREE AMMO! In the name of science.
banana time
I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.
Yes, you have a rich poor (but rich enough to spend $11 to send some extra ammo they had lying around) benefactor who will pay for your 'services'! Does this mean you're easy?
I considered not telling you I was sending out the care package, but then thought you might get concerned when an ORM-D package greeted you on your doorstep suddenly one day and you called the local bomb disposal to take care of it.
It would seem reasonable that the gas port on a semi auto is going to steal some from the velocity, though I guess it depends on how fast the powder burns, how long the barrel is, how tight a fit the bullet is in the bore, etc.
P.S. For goodness sakes don't sell the K98 until after you've gotten these things Chrono'd! rofl
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I want to chrono some more with the G43. Is it true that, since gas is being recycled into the gun, you can expect consistently lower velocities out of a semiauto rifle? The 10 rounds I tested seemed a hair slower.
Yes...
...That is, given conservation of energy, and if all other things are equal, i.e., the same barrel length, bore condition, same land and groove diameter, there would have to be a drop in velocity due to siphoning off some of the energy from the deflagrating powder gases to drive the cycling of the bolt. The velocity in the G43 for the Egyptian ammo was 97% and the Romanian 98.5% of the velocity in the K98 so it was a significant but not large decrease in velocity (of course the barrels are probably not in identical condition). Given that the energy required to drive the bolt back/compress the spring is fairly low, and the size of the gas port is rather small relative to the area of the bore, it's not surprising that the velocity drop relative to a bolt-action rifle is not large.
P.S. I was working on my long-winded analytical answer while RM was answering more succinctly chuckles1
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Then I guess it stands to reason I should keep testing ammo out of the same k98? I figured any k98 would produce the same results. It never occurred to me barrel condition or other factors could change results if using a different example of the same gun. I'm new to this ballistic jargon.
I was sure I had some Iranian ammo but I may have been confusing it with the Turk. Another run through the ammo cans might be in order. I'm fairly certain the Egyptian is 196 gr. The Ecuadorian is a mystery.
That particular k98 isn't going anywhere, Joe. That was the best gun deal I've made in a while. Wouldn't trade it for a matching BSW.
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I was hoping to experiment with the Luftwaffe 98. I just wanted to be able to say Luftwaffens do it faster & harder, print it on a bumper sticker and slap it on my truck cab window.
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Hey Danny, I don't have any old 8mm Mauser cartridges but at the risk of evoking the wrath of Dominus Blicero rofl here are some pictures of 8x56R cartridges for the M95 Steyr manufactured in Nov. '38 after the Austrian Anschluss (March '38) and hence Nazi stamped (I dont' even have an M95 but I got a few boxes of this stuff in a random lot of old ammo) ???
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocandbox.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocandbox.jpg.html)
Nazi eagle stamps on enbloc clips
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocstamp.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56enblocstamp.jpg.html)
Headstamps
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56headstamp.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/8x56R/8x56headstamp.jpg.html)
Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: loser1
I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!
Good smiley info, thanks Joe :)
Re the misplaced ammo: :o
That's way too cool Phosphorus, thanks for posting!!
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I was hoping to experiment with the Luftwaffe 98. I just wanted to be able to say Luftwaffens do it faster & harder, print it on a bumper sticker and slap it on my truck cab window.
That'd be interesting to compare two K98's with the same ammo (at least one or two types). Just run Joe's surplus through the original test rifle too, please.
Hey Danny, you're welcome. I think the old ammo is kind of cool and I have sort of stumbled into half-ass collecting it.
...and Kevin didn't even give me a hard time about posting pictures of the wrong 8mm ammo (yet)...I'm almost disappointed...I was expecting a beating rofl
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Phosphorus32,
Please read the rules;
Try to stay on topic,
Thread hijacking is against our policies;
If you wish to continue posting....
Please stay on the topic which is....
8mm Mauser;
Not your goofy 8x56R rounds;
Which is completely unrelated and impertinent to the topic at hand....
This may be a thread devoted to ammo favored by the Nazis but that does not mean any random piece of Nazi-marked paraphernalia is relevant to what we're dealing with;
Thanks...
The red font and superfluous use of semicolons and ellipses really magnifies my authority I hope.
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Funny! chuckles1
Package is in the mail Kevin. FedEx says it's going to take 4 working days to get there. You must live out in the sticks! I bet you get the box before JD gets his bayonets via covered wagon though! 10 rounds of each, but only 5 of the '99 M75, (I don't have too much of that stuff!)
Hopefully you weren't expecting a crate or something. Just enough to grease the skids when it comes time to talk about shipping on my new letter И ruby red laminate Russian! thankyou1
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Wow! Red lettering even :o I feel appropriately chastised now. Thank-you sir fart1 chuckles1
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Dus any1 no wut kinda sks i got it has 3 asian markings and a trinagle with a symbol in it n dus any1 no wut year it was made tnx
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Dus any1 no wut kinda sks i got it has 3 asian markings and a trinagle with a symbol in it n dus any1 no wut year it was made tnx
rofl....Hey Worm, you forgot "how much is it worth?". Like they are a modern day Jed Clampett that just struck it rich with a couple of beat up shooters like mine! chuckles1
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N how much is it worth to tnx
rofl2
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Less than a week after I derail & denounce the quality of Egyptian, African or Middle Eastern guns, this happens.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?377826-Range-Mishap-WARNING-Graphic-Images-for-Hakim-Lovers
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That Persian headstamp is very similar, if not identical to what I sent you. Be careful with that stuff Kevin! :)
Hakims are pretty well known for slamfire issues right? The fact that he hadn't even pulled the trigger tells me it's not a double loaded round or a squib. There was either a round already in the chamber that he didn't notice that was set off by the point of the round he was trying to chamber or the round entering the chamber initiated before the bolt was in battery.
He's lucky he didn't kill himself...and then to keep shooting after this whole episode? I'm sorry, but that's just asinine.
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Holy cow! :o :o That guy is one lucky sob! Looks like most of the energy went down through the magazine well during that out of battery defecation fart1
I'm with Joe, If I had an incident like that and escaped relatively unscathed I would call it good for the day, especially since I might not be thinking clearly with a sub-concussive blow to my head ???
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Thanks to Runningman we are able to throw some more nations into our worldwide melting pot of 8mm Mauser. He chipped in some Iranian, Turkish, Greek, and a 5-pack of Yugo m75 for our earth shattering, highly scientific experiment here. If this doesn't earn me tenure, I'm going back to being a short order cook.
I mixed it up a little bit. Along with the k98k, I clocked rounds with the k98b as well. I wanted to see the effect an extra five inches of barrel would have on velocity (23" on the k98k, 28" on the k98b). Also, I paid far less attention to what this ammo was doing in the accuracy department on this go-round. The range was packed and I refused to walk 100 yards downrange just to inspect & switch targets.
First up was the Iranian ammo. This stuff was surprisingly accurate, all 10 rounds were in the paint (the paint is a 6" circle). I fired all of it through the k98k:
2554 fps
2431 (hang fire)
2435 (hang)
2485
2506
2466
2426 (hang)
2507
2425 (hang)
2509
This ammo entails three notable features: surprisingly accurate, terrifying with the hang fires, but very educational in that those hang fires show you the quality of your trigger pull!
Honestly, I don't care how accurate it is. If it takes 1/2 the rounds a second or more to ignite, it's junk, good for nothing more than making noise.
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Yugo m75 sniper ammo. This is nice ammo, consistently loaded & always sure to fire. Looking at the last bunch of numbers I ran using this ammo, I think it's safe to say this is some of the softest & lightest 8mm Mauser you can find.
All shot from the k98k:
2392 fps
2414
2433
2420
2427
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Another go-round with the Ecuadorian ammo. I really need to spend some time paying attention to how this ammo prints on paper. I have no clue what it did today but the velocities were evenly spread.
K98k:
2502
2510
2515
2505
2480
K98b:
2648
2616 (double strike)
2680
2622
2654
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Next up is something with which I have zero experience: Greek 8mm. Now, I grew up in a Greek town in Florida. I know their ways. Let me just say...I was not brimming with optimism regarding their surplussed ammunition. But this is fantastic ammo! Consistent, clean, accurate and sure to fire every time. I hope that's not just the result of a small sample size.
K98b:
2531 fps
2537
2467
2516
2526
k98k:
2447
2440
2430
2393
2421
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'50's Yugo
K98b:
2455
2473
2475
2411
2414
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Lastly I tried the Turkish ammo. This is where I had the most fun. My partner told me 3k fps is near the top end of the 8mm limits. Knowing from the last trip that Turk stuff is pretty hot, and that the longer barrel on the k98b increased some velocity across the board, I wanted to push that clock over 3k fps. I nailed it.
K98k:
2924fps
2922
2873
2914
K98b:
2988fps
3018
3008
3038
3024
2997
Fun times! Thanks again to RM for contributing to it! My shooting partner was just as curious to see the Chrony results as I was. We also had some laughs clocking 45acp (snail's pace!), 9mm, 7mm Mauser & 30 carbine. That chrono is the neatest range toy invented since Shiva created firearms.
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6600_zps66c62e33.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6600_zps66c62e33.jpg.html)
(http://i1281.photobucket.com/albums/a508/picklethebeast/IMG_6603_zpse3826794.jpg) (http://s1281.photobucket.com/user/picklethebeast/media/IMG_6603_zpse3826794.jpg.html)
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Very nice Kev... threads like this are awesome to read and very informative!
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Great stuff thumb1
Those Turkish cases must be well stuffed with powder behind that light Spitzer bullet. That Kar98b is tossing lead at close to the velocity of a round coming out of an AR but with a bullet of almost three times the mass of the M193 :o Can you say knockdown power?
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I'm impressed you got 3k fps Kevin! thumb1
Interesting to see the two Turkish sets:
#1 TURKEY (head stamped T C / 1943 / FS / 7.9)
2868 fps
2882
2855
2919
2826
2802
2975
2906
2821
2724
#2 TURKEY (T C / 1951? / FS / 7.9)
2924 fps
2922
2873
2914
Almost ten years mfgr difference and who knows what kind of storage each saw and yet the two K98k sets are pretty darn similar! I wish I had bought another couple of cases of that stuff when it was selling for 5 cents a round! violin1
I'm glad to know the Greek has your seal of approval. I paid 50 cents a round for that stuff on GB back in mid 2013 I think and haven't shot a whole bunch of it. It's good to know that there is some ammo from the 30's that is still decent!
I'm bummed about the Persian stuff. I was hoping that by using up all the crown headstamped rounds (about 50 of them out of 500) I had 'solved' the hangfire problems. I guess not. Maybe I'll put it up for sale: Terrifyingly accurate ammo! rofl2
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I'm bummed about the Persian stuff. I was hoping that by using up all the crown headstamped rounds (about 50 of them out of 500) I had 'solved' the hangfire problems. I guess not. Maybe I'll put it up for sale: Terrifyingly accurate ammo! rofl2
Old Iranian surplus ammo, a parting gift from The Shah and SAVAK to hang us up on the firing line :))
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Very nice Kev... threads like this are awesome to read and very informative!
Thanks buddy. Between good Samaritans contributing ammo in the name of science and our man Phosphorus graphing pie charts and calculating standard deviations, I never thought this experiment would be so popular. For me it was just an excuse to learn a little something about the caliber, and to mix up my range routine.
Except for German ammo, I think we've learned something about all the nations' 8mm that's available to us on the market. Now I would like to spend some more time looking strictly at what each nation can do in the accuracy department. Unfortunately I am out of Yugo m75 and I'm down to only 30 rounds of '50s Yugo. I'd like to study what the Greek is capable of, I'm in the process of sweet-talking RM out of his stash.
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I fell down on my job as geek :))
The K98b vs. the shorter K98k barrel resulted in 5.7%, 3.7% and 3.6% higher velocities for the Ecuadorian, Greek and Turkish ammo, respectively.
Here are the average velocity and standard deviation statistics for the ammo on the second range day
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison2.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison2.jpg.html)
Recapitulating the previous data for the sake of comparisons
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/M75%20Mauser%20Ammo/Kevins8mmAmmoComparison.jpg.html)
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Ha! Look at that quality Iranian ammo! 10 round Std. dev better than equal rounds of Turkish, Equadorian, Yugo, or Eqyptian!
Yup, terrifyingly accurate! Who wants to buy it off me?! I'll sell for the right price!!! chuckles1
I'll have to take 60 rounds or so out to the range and see how it does with a bigger sample size than the 20 I shot last time. I swear I had 0 issues with the non-crown headstamp stuff out of the 24/47. I think your K98k is just a junker Kevin. Maybe you should get rid of that POS? I'll take one for the team and toss you $100 and 200 rounds of Iranian ammo for it! thankyou1 rofl2
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I have a few true junker k98s. Be careful what ya offer chuckles1
I just landed 300 rounds of Turk thanks to a local facebook deal...from one of the groups that didn't expel me for being a round 'em up gasser of undesirables. Once I pick up a few more packs of m75, I'm going to look strictly at accuracy. I'm worried that between human error and inconsistent loads, an accuracy test might not be too honest or revealing.
Phos, I appreciate you sorting this data out. But can you put the data into practical, real world terms? What would those numbers translate to if you're a hunter, sharpshooter, soldier, or casual plinker?
One thing I failed to mention, the Iranian ammo cases were a bit out of spec too I think. All of the rounds required a bit of force to get the bolt fully closed. I don't know if that's improper bullet seating or OAL problems or improperly formed brass, but closing the bolt on them felt stiff & tough.
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Phos, I appreciate you sorting this data out. But can you put the data into practical, real world terms? What would those numbers translate to if you're a hunter, sharpshooter, soldier, or casual plinker?
Good question. Of course velocity is just one of many important parameters. The ammunition that exhibited small standard deviations should shoot very consistently (excluding those hang fire lots :))), assuming the bullet weights (and shape) are virtually identical as well. That's an important assumption. If it's incorrect, tight velocities are worthless. But it's really, really unlikely that you could have sloppy bullet weights and sloppy powder loads matching up to get tight velocities. As a relevant aside, I weighed about 20 Sierra Matchkings and their weights were identical, within the limit of precision of my electronic scale. That's what everyone wants. The other aspect of bullet weight that we just touched on earlier in this thread is the mix of heavy and light ball ammo in your round up and how that factors into ballistic energy, E = 0.5mv2, where m = bullet mass and v = velocity.
Consistency is good for all the classes of shooters you mention, but potentially life and death for a sharpshooter/sniper, whose objective is consistent, predictable shot placement to achieve 1 shot = 1 kill results. Of course, none of these are hunting cartridges, but I don't think you were referring to that, the hunter needs good accuracy and high energy for stopping power, and bullet expansion to inflict lethal damage.
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Thanks to our man Phosphorus, I was able to experiment with some Israeli surplus 8mm. According to him this ammo uses 178 grain projectiles (correct me if I'm wrong there, I don't have the box in front of me), which struck me as odd since I thought military ammo came only in 150 & 200 gr. And it is boxer primed, bonus. I'll send you back the brass, Jon.
As an aside, my shooting buddy was checking out the Israeli ammo & he asked if this was another freebie batch. I said yep, my friends found this project interesting enough to contribute to the cause. Then I reiterated the "I love data" statement Phos had previously said and that set my buddy into a heavy chuckle. He took some guesses at the type of personality that would utter such a phrase...let's just leave it at he knows RM & Phos pretty darn well rofl
At any rate, the Israeli ammo is a pleasure to shoot. It all fired on command and cycled smoothly in the Lubecker. We were a little vexed by the velocity, we had guessed 178 grain 8mm would be in the 2600+ fps neck of the woods. It shoots about 7" over POA. It was passably accurate- I shot two groups of 10 shots each, one measuring 5.75" and the other 8". Without referencing my previous results, I'm tempted to say this ammo had an equal or smaller velocity spread than any of the other nations. I doubt there's much of this ammo floating around, but if you can find it for under $.45/rd. I'd say you need to jump on it. Great stuff.
2471 fps
2516
2501
2499
2522
2519
2504
2533
2548
2552
2556
2555
2538
2503
2531
2548
2502
2550
2524
2552
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Data! :))
Yes, they were 178 grain, as measured on my digital balance (just one example). They are FMJ (copper clad, presumably with a lead core, since they are non-magnetic), have a cannelure and no boat tail. The first data point looks like an outlier in a scatter plot, perhaps the first shot out of a cold barrel? I didn't run any statistical analyses to formally exclude it but the numbers in parentheses are without that first datum. Average was 2526 (2529) fps and the standard deviation was 24.1 (20.8). Similar to many of the other types of ammo, other than the M75 which was much tighter, and the Iranian which had a very broad distribution.
Glad your friend was amused. I'd analyze his bemusement but I don't have any first hand data on which to conduct an unbiased investigation rofl