Author Topic: Turkish Forestry Carbine  (Read 4883 times)

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Offline Phosphorus32

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Turkish Forestry Carbine
« on: October 06, 2017, 11:47:09 AM »
I've been wanting one of these relatively scarce and unusual carbines for a while and finally found a rather forlorn one on an auction site earlier this summer that I had to save. I could see in the auction pictures that it had active rust begging to be carded or scrubbed off with copper pennies and brass brushes, so I bought it and gave it a bit of TLC. Most of these look a bit rough (this one is certainly no exception), which I guess should be expected considering they were carried around the hills on horseback by foresters, and not soldiers trained in the care of firearms.

The marking on the receiver ring, "T.C. Orman" stands for Türkiye Cumhuriyeti Orman, or translated literally, Turkish Republic, Forestry. Approximately 8,000-10,000 Berthier M1907_15, chambered in 8x50 Lebel, were converted by the Turks in 1948 to these 21" carbines for use by the ~5,000 foresters (ca. 1948) of the Orman ve Su İşleri Bakanlığı (Ministry of Forest and Water Management). The Turkish forests are the source of Circassian Walnut, a local variant of the English Walnut (Juglans regia) that is highly prized for rifle stocks, among other things. Apparently poaching of trees was an issue but the Turks didn't want to arm their foresters with Mausers chambered the standard military cartridge of the era, 7.92x57mm, since that was widely available. Rather, they wanted to use these three shot carbines firing an odd cartridge only available from military stores in small quantities, such that if these were captured by poachers they would be of little use to them.

The origins of the Berthier long rifles in Turkey, from which the carbine was derived, are uncertain. One hypothesis is that they were captured during transit to the middle east (Iraq) during WWII. This example was certainly captured or purchased post 1932 as can be discerned by the N marking (faint mark above the "T.C.") on the receiver. That N signifies that the chamber was reamed out to accept the Modele 1932 N (Nouveau = new), which was the new Lebel cartridge. The 32N replaced the old brass bullet containing Balle D cartridge originally developed for the Lebel Modele 1886, and it holds the distinction of being the first smokeless powder cartridge adopted by any country's military.

To make the conversion, the barrels were shortened by 9", the stocks were cut down and the upper barrel band of obsolete M1905 Turkish Mausers were used. Sights were replaced, a shroud was added in front of the receiver, bolt turned down 30 degrees, etc. This example is "matching" as you can see the Turkish applied serial number on the receiver and bolt. Obviously it's a mish-mash of parts from Berthiers, but upon conversion by the Turks those two major components were serialized to match one another. The donor M1907_15 long rifle for this particular Forestry Carbine was made by the automobile manufacturer, Delaunay Belleville during WWI when French heavy industry was mobilized for production of armaments and supplies for the military.

If you want to read more, Patrick's (1886lebel) sticky on "Berthier carbine and rifle information" over on Gunboards is the best English language source, and the information here is largely derived from what I've read there.

















































THIS is a rifle...


THIS is a car  :))

« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 12:20:03 PM by Phosphorus32 »

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2017, 12:20:21 PM »
Oh my  :o  c'est chaud   drool2

A Delaunay Belleville auto was like a Cadillac, maybe even a Rolls today.. super neat vehicles.. I saw one at an autoshow, like a 1910 or something, and some of the tech on that car is mind blowing for the age.. water cooled brakes.. independent 4 wheel suspension.. 


Ok, you posted it...now....SEND ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT....please..  rofl2
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2017, 12:26:21 PM »
Ok, you posted it...now....SEND ME MY BIRTHDAY PRESENT....please..  rofl2

I can't decide what to send  think1  rofl


Oh my  :o  c'est chaud   drool2

That reminds me, I haven't listened to Sonny Landreth for a while...

Offline kjohn

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2019, 04:42:38 PM »
I have one - the carbine, that is.  Before I ever saw a carbine like that, I scored a stripper clip with three rounds.  I asked a dealer at a gun show what it was, and he nailed it.  Nifty little carbines and neat history..
Crusty old retired RCMP, tractor salvage owner, farmer.

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 01:20:47 AM »
You need to take that thing for evening walks around the neighborhood.... its getting a potbelly. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline carls sks

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2019, 08:59:04 AM »
very cool, a first for me. thanks for sharing.
ARMY NAM VET, SO PROUD!

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2019, 04:37:41 AM »
I have one - the carbine, that is.  Before I ever saw a carbine like that, I scored a stripper clip with three rounds.  I asked a dealer at a gun show what it was, and he nailed it.  Nifty little carbines and neat history..

The 3 and 5 round en bloc clips have become pricey, they’re always a must snag item.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2019, 04:40:08 AM »
You need to take that thing for evening walks around the neighborhood.... its getting a potbelly.

 :)) Yup, the Berthiers do have a distinctive look with that wood encased Mannlicher style magazine well.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Turkish Forestry Carbine
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 04:41:14 AM »
very cool, a first for me. thanks for sharing.

Thanks Carl  thumb1