SKS-FILES FORUM
SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => Russian SKS => Topic started by: jstin2 on May 29, 2018, 09:09:25 PM
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Added - 50 with long tab receiver cover latch - #5
I have been interested in the way the 50s changed. Thanks to info from various experts, I have tried to follow this change.
1. 50 with all 49 features including spike bayonet. This was in question until documentation was presented and another 50 with spike was found.
https://ibb.co/album/kP3zJv
2. 50 with 49 features including a spike bayonet, but with a 45 degree gas port instead of 90 degree gas port.
https://ibb.co/album/N9G70w
https://ibb.co/album/CBJYxs
3. 50 with blade bayonet. Stock and stock ferrule needed to be replaced from the 49, but still has remaining 49 features.
https://ibb.co/album/hva8WF
https://ibb.co/album/cQ985a
4. 50 with blade bayonet. 90 degree gas port, forged eyelet, star and date stamped. Pictures supplied by Yeklop.
https://ibb.co/album/9kBT85
Another example of an early 50 from Matt
https://ibb.co/album/Vx1ggh
5. 50 gas port replaced with 45. Still retains engraved date and tula star, and spring FP.
https://ibb.co/album/jWEABF
6. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Still retains forged eyelet take down lever. Photos added by Cz315
https://ibb.co/album/2SQQzn
7. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Change to stamped eyelet receiver cover takedown latch. Retains spring FP.
https://ibb.co/album/cwJsQa
8. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Change from stamped eyelet receiver cover takedown latch to long tab latch.
https://ibb.co/album/iv23gF
9. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Change from receiver cover long tab latch to short.
https://ibb.co/album/j3SxrF
10. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Change to stamped solid receiver cover takedown latch(late 50 to 58).Retains spring FP.
https://ibb.co/album/gw3bka
11. 50 with stamped date and tula star. Change to free floating firing pin.
https://ibb.co/album/d2yxQa
Now this is only what I have noticed and documented. There may be other items missed. These carbines are refurbished so anything goes. Additional pictures upon request.
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There's one more that you don't have listed jstin: the transitional long tab takedown lever between #4 and #5:
(https://image.ibb.co/hhagcd/796_receiver_cover_top.jpg)
Noticeably different than the standard (short) tab used from late '50 through the end of production:
(https://image.ibb.co/jb7PVy/AO1638_receiver_cover_top.jpg)
Found prefixes for this style (so far, this is obviously not all inclusive) are:
ДА
ДО
ЛМ
ЛЮ
СА
СК
СМ
СН
СО
СЯ
ША
ШГ
ШН
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Thanks for the info. Now one more to look for. You had mentioned long tab solid in another post but I was unsure what it looked like. Do you have any side views of lever?
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I purchased a 50 from a private sale. When I was checking it over, I noticed that it also had a spring F/P. Then when apart, I noticed that the receiver cover latch pin hole was larger and the pin was also large. I then checked my 50 with free floating F/P and it also was the same. Checked #5 later spring loaded F/P and it had larger latch pin hole. Added pictures of free floating F/P receiver cover and latch pin to #6.
Here are some pictures of the SKS I received today. This would indicate another transition between #4 and #5. Also any idea what the extra stamps on receiver by S/N are?
https://ibb.co/album/j3SxrF
I checked carbine on #4 and it had early latch pin hole, #5 had the larger pin hole (both are spring loaded). The only other change between covers were the arrow design in tula star and eyelet to solid latch pin.
Possibly change to receiver cover hole was made when they went to a solid latch pin?
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Added receiver cover pictures to #4 and #5. Also picture of trigger opening in receiver. 1950 may have been when they changed the shape of opening. Time to check your 50s.
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Here are some pictures of the SKS I received today. This would indicate another transition between #4 and #5. Also any idea what the extra stamps on receiver by S/N are?
You have a УЧ Ы marked Russian training gun (http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=3028.0)
Nice gun! thumb1
Undoubtedly the pin and receiver cover hole are intertwined, one doesn't get changed w/o affecting the other. Receiver cover innards are rarely photographed, I've got nothing in my records to show when this transition might have happened. I'm surprised it's a separate change from the stamped "1950" date. You'd think that when they changed one they might have changed both. dntknw1
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Do you have any side views of lever?
Sorry, hadn't seen this request. Here are a few side shots:
(https://image.ibb.co/ebhqXo/CO1270_import_stamp.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/g7neQ8/CO1527_import_stamp.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iYOxCo)
(https://image.ibb.co/hrqAXo/CO1648_right_rear.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://image.ibb.co/nK9FyT/CO2934_right_rear.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZfcCo)
(https://image.ibb.co/kgyVXo/C_3029_import_stamp.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hN5AXo)
(https://image.ibb.co/gegTJT/C_1927_receiver_cover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/iqsqXo)
(https://image.ibb.co/hij4so/1058_receiver_cover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jQmHCo)
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running-man, thanks for the information. Are these training guns scarce? I was impressed with condition of carbine when it arrived, seller had a couple of pictures in ad and I was not able to get a close look.
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Training guns marked with the УЧ Ы aren't commonly seen, but one could argue that it's just a simple stamp on an otherwise typical SKS45 (or AK/PM/optic, or whatever). As far as I know, the УЧ Ы stamp offers very little in the way of additional market price.
Your specimen is quite nice, all training guns are definitely not all like that; they run the gambit from non-functional models to pristine guns pulled fresh off the line. Your stock has clearly been refinished but it's likely original and currently looks as-issued. I don't see many '50s in that nice of condition to be honest, most have replacement parts, BBQ paint, refurb stamps, etc. thumb1
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Added pictures of 50 with Long Tab receiver cover latch pin - #5. This should be the extent of transitions during 1950. Also it should be noted that receiver cover and latch pin are early style(small pin opening). Also opening for trigger is early style. i noticed that the number 1 on trigger and magazine are different from rest of S/Ns.
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running-man, You had mentioned that there were 4 styles of receiver cover latch pins for 1950, there are actually 5. 49/50 had forged eyelet, then stamped eyelet, large latch, small latch then the final one that they stayed with till end of production. You can see differences in pictures.
https://ibb.co/album/d36tFa
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I was unaware the retaining pin changed diameter in this transition. That feature is almost never photographed and posted. I bet most collectors gloss over that detail, I know I did. It would be interesting to catalogue in what S/N's this transition takes place. We could then "chronologicalize" all '50's based on their respective transition feature. Would need a much bigger dataset though, three or four specimens per prefix set with matching features would be ideal. Maybe I'll incorporate a question like this into the Russian survey. think1
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This is a very useful thread. Would it make sense to add it to the stickies or add the info to the SKS guide for 1950?
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Here the promised pictures of the '50 that looks to be the 3.5 variant using Jstin2's nomenclature.
(https://i.ibb.co/2yhyrWx/IMG-8924.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t4K46Qg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Dt9xPKC/IMG-8929.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PNc7sCh)
(https://i.ibb.co/x6J7fmK/IMG-8925.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZxWMYHR)
(https://i.ibb.co/0mZkyy8/IMG-8932.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xjp9xxN)
(https://i.ibb.co/xMX9F2D/IMG-8928.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHbZNRG)
(https://i.ibb.co/9gycd2x/IMG-8926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nmQ6KfX)
(https://i.ibb.co/TKpQSX5/IMG-8930.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4s9bGyx)
(https://i.ibb.co/GdjMSXR/IMG-8927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0n39bkr)
(https://i.ibb.co/VtPFWqz/IMG-8933.jpg) (https://ibb.co/475bZVX)
(https://i.ibb.co/nDLRtpG/IMG-8931.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SK3JGSj)
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Cz315 - If you give me the ibb.co/album/_ _ _ _ _ _ code, I will add it to the list. Thanks for the addition.
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Here the promised pictures of the '50 that looks to be the 3.5 variant using Jstin2's nomenclature.
Very nice. thumb1
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Cz315 - If you give me the ibb.co/album/_ _ _ _ _ _ code, I will add it to the list. Thanks for the addition.
Here it is. https://ibb.co/album/2SQQzn
Thanks!
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Cz315 - Thanks for the addition. Could you add pictures of entire rifle, bayonet channel and stock ferrule. The stock from the pictures that you took looks like it could be from a spike bayonet. The taper on the stock makes it look that way. Maybe just the angle? I know that the stock has been replaced and reserialized from pictures in your other post. The stock for a spiker has a smaller end, so it should be very loose in a blade bayonet stock ferrule unless modification or stock ferrule change.
https://ibb.co/gJYOew
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Cz315 - I reread your other post and you stated that it was a replacement stock and you could still see the sanded out date. Stated that you could see a 1950 date on it. If it is a stock for a spiker, then it adds additional proof of spike bayonets on early 1950 SKS. Also if the stock is for a spike bayonet, can you make out the old serial number or is it sanded out? Thanks
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Will do. It did not look like a spiker (although admittedly I wasn’t looking for it). It looked like the “usual” blade stock (the one on the right in your photo). The ferrule looked like the late variety as well. I couldn’t make out the old serial. I’ll try to take some better pics tomorrow.
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What made me question the stock, is the picture in your album that is upside down showing serial number on receiver. It looks like the taper of a spike stock. Like I said before, maybe camera angle distortion.
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I have two guns with the same prefix in my files, they are:
ИЯ669 (not so great photos, but looks to be an early hoop takedown):
(https://i.ibb.co/vQXTtW4/669-bolt.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/H7v6jT6/669-receiver-cover-top.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/BTkwkvw/669-left-front.jpg)
ИЯ721 (much better photos, but a much different takedown lever):
(https://i.ibb.co/pJXmrTT/721-receiver-cover-top.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/vsGC9FQ/721-receiver-cover.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/pQTDDym/721-receiver.jpg)
It could easily be that the 721 gun had the takedown lever replaced at refurb, but why with a long tab model and not the standard short tab that was universal from late '50 on?
Another thought is that they were utilizing what they had during these transitional '50s and the ИЯ prefix happens to have both style of takedown levers based on what OEM hardware they had available. Obviously CZ315's '50 above is ~1.5k units after these two, yet still has the early hoop, so the transition doesn't appear to have been a clean one at S/N XXXX but rather phased in over many guns. That's more plausible in my mind; we see this with the OEM hardwood vs laminate stocks on the '56-58 letter suffix series as well... thumb1
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Here are some additional pics https://ibb.co/album/chFYns hopefully the 1950 date remnants are seen on those. The Tula star is barely visible and any remains of the serials are way too faint.
Sadly, not a spiker. It'd be pretty cool.
As far as milled tab I can totally see why it didn't last long, the stamped one is incredibly more robust and cheap!
I guess we'll never know whether it was a gradual transition or a change during refurb on that 721. My guess would be a change at refurb, but the other option is just as likely. How many examples of stamped looped latch are there?
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Stamped loop latches are rare as hens teeth. I think I have only 3 examples in my files. I might not believe they existed if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes. It's clear that it was not a common feature in these transitional 50's
Long tab are much more often seen (yet still not common), but they are still confined to a set of prefixes from 1950 only. For example, you *never* see a long tab on a 1951 SKS45. This is what makes me think that the refurbishment of 721 is a less likely scenario than that tab being on the gun at build time. Another Q I have is why would they have replaced the tab on a brand new 1950 gun with another 1950 specific tab? Did it break before it went into the crate at Tula? I'd think if it did get broken later, say in 1951+, it would be replaced with what OEM stock was available at the time (which is the short tab version exclusively from '51 on.) dntknw1
I don't like to draw conclusions based on 1 or 2 examples in a set. Too many oddities can happen that throw you off the correct path. I don't discount Jstin2's spiker at all as it's a really neat unique specimen, but I also am not ready to give my 100% approval of the hypothesis either. We continue to look for more examples and other data points like bunker & pcke's historical analyses which help to paint a better picture of what was going on at the time.
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The replacement to a long tab may have been due to the diameter of the retaining pin on the take down latch. Later latches had a larger diameter pin. Early 50 receiver covers had a smaller opening for the retaining pin.
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It could be, but there are numerous examples of '49 covers on non '49 guns with short tab latches and they fit just fine.
(https://i.ibb.co/ynqCwwx/T-6809-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/GpDH8X4/T-6809-receiver-cover-top-mismatch2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/gyRNFPC/T-6809-receiver-cover-top-mismatch.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/3F7h1K3/T-6809-receiver-cover-mismatch.jpg)
The long tab latch being a refurbishment part just doesn't sit well with me. The database only has these prefixes with that feature and they are *all* '50 guns:
ДА
ДО
ИЯ
ЛМ
ЛЮ (x5)
СА (x2)
СК
СМ
СН (x2)
СО (x4)
СЯ (x3)
ША
ШГ
ШН
You'd think some non-'50's would have popped up with a long tab if they were used in refurb. I don't even have any "unknown year" categorized heavy refurb guns with the long tab, and there are quite a few of those. dntknw1
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The channel for a 49 and early 50 on the receiver cover is smaller. So unless modification(smaller retaining pin) was installed on short tab shaft it would not work. Then again it would not take much to drill a hole in a blank shaft and put in a smaller pin. This would be easier than altering receiver cover channel.
https://ibb.co/album/d36tFa
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I saw a 1957 SKS for sale and it had a 49 receiver cover. It shows that the receiver cover was modified to fit the latch pin. Also receiver cover was scrubbed and matching serial number stamped. The picture of receiver cover with matching serial number shows that cover does not fit flush with receiver. Does this show that when scrubbed, enough metal is removed so it does not sit flush with receiver?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/klmvm9veigkd15n/AAAenUp8A2Gys8tPFv-8CRONa?dl=0
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Good pic of the mod. The square keyway certainly looks hand worked with it being offset a bit like that. Definitely a 'file to fit' operation there.
Sometimes scrubbed S/N receiver covers fit nicely, other times they fit poorly. I suspect it's based on how much material has to be removed to obliterate the previous S/N plus how well the part is within tolerance in the first place. It also has a bit to do with the skill of the technician who did the work. Some scrubbed covers are noticeable from a mile away, with others, you'd be hard pressed to find the smallest indication that they were even scrubbed.
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jstin2, I want to bring your attention to something else.
On your file of the SKS 1950 I noticed, that #1 has a 49 rear sight leaf ( a notch on the top of the #10)
There are no pix of the rear sight from #2 to #8.
#9 has a different rear sight leaf ( the notch is in the middle of the #10)
When the transition started?
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jaroslav- hate to tell you but last year I got rid of the majority of my collection. Thus I cannot tell you when the change was made. A buddy of mine bought the early 50 with blade so I can ask him to email me some pictures. Other than that, other collectors will have to check theirs. It is amazing how avid SKS owners are finding new revelations on the SKS. Cleaning rod nubs - even to staggered, piston rod changes, receiver cover takedown levers, safety lever ridges and style and now the rear sight leaf. PS, I can not take any credit for this, but am thankful that I took pictures of my collection to help further information. If you have the know how to transfer the pictures to show the difference, please post. I had to go between pictures several times before I noticed what you had mentioned.
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jstin2, I want to bring your attention to something else.
On your file of the SKS 1950 I noticed, that #1 has a 49 rear sight leaf ( a notch on the top of the #10)
There are no pix of the rear sight from #2 to #8.
#9 has a different rear sight leaf ( the notch is in the middle of the #10)
When the transition started?
I would say possibly sometime in 1950-1951. I just quickly checked some pics of my rifles:
(1) refurb 1949 (OP series): notch on the top of the #10
(2) 2 refurb early transitional 1950 (both EV series): notch on the top of the #10
(3) Non-refurb 1951 (KP series): notch is in the middle/at bottom of the #10
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Another transition brought up by Phosphorus32 in his post - 1949 Tula Redux, was gas piston change. Here are pictures of my early 50 and a 54. 50 on the right
https://ibb.co/album/5x1ZfM
Another item brought up in that post by pcke2000 was the change in the safety lever - Grooves and defined shape. 50 on the left.
https://ibb.co/album/FkZhjC
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Took pictures of my early 50 and 54 to show differences on the rear sight brought up by jaroslav.
https://ibb.co/album/25wwy2
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Took pictures of my early 50 and 54 to show differences on the rear sight brought up by jaroslav.
https://ibb.co/album/25wwy2
The 50 is on the right.
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Here’s my early 50
(https://i.ibb.co/zH8YdPT/77-B4325-A-36-C1-4948-B827-7-A3-C146-C6-E9-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S7Q8SV4)
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Whew!
I for a minute there thought I had bought the wrong leaf for a minute there...when I specifically thought what I have was right, as I had to replace it. Mine came with a William's peep. ::)
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A fellow collector sent me a picture of his early 49 SKS. More to come. Cleaning rod nubs are even and no rivet in the magazine. I added his picture of the safety lever as it does not have any ridges.
https://ibb.co/album/FkZhjC
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Now that is interesting! Not only does it lack the knurling, the flag portion is several mm short.
Good stuff jstin2! thumb1
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Just checked mine and it still has top 10 and early groove directions. Pics to follow.
EDIT: pics attached.
(https://i.ibb.co/6ZVz63r/IMG-9365-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LPbm4LY)
(https://i.ibb.co/FnYxwVk/IMG-9387-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N7NVjSg)
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running-man, I did not notice the shorter flag dimension, just the facts on no slots. Thanks to the SKS collector, as I am only relaying his findings and pictures of his SKS.
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Here is another transitional one, notably it is 162 off in serial number from a 49 (refurb) I have.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5NJLt1F/IMG-5207.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5CsnmcH/IMG-5208.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd3WjhTz/IMG-5209.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/52HXQF9D/IMG-5210.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz9GN4G0/IMG-5212.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnJM29xV/IMG-5214.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKcCKbPT/IMG-5215.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZY4RDz4/IMG-5216.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JJqZvRw/IMG-5217.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBrK07f4/IMG-5218.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZ2b9pT3/IMG-5219.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtHxNVkj/IMG-5220.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y10D0Cn/IMG-5225.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXYK90ff/IMG-5226.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfQRpkM8/IMG-5228.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5tY9Fs8/IMG-5229.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gk4jNDXQ/IMG-5227.jpg)
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Added Yeklop's sks to transition's list.
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I have added my latest purchase to transitions. #2 on the list. 1950 with spike bayonet but with a 45 degree gas port instead of 90 degree. I will be replacing the album with a new one, when I get the rifle and more pictures taken.
Album has been replaced.
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I have a single ЕЮ in the database. Cover on it is from a '49, but it has an interesting difference of having a welded bayo cut at the stock ferrule vs. the one you show Yeklop. Interesting that there are two different year covers, that could be because one or the other is a replacement or could be a duplication of prefixes into '50. Not enough data to say, but it seems to happen quite a bit with the early 49's and transitional 50's.
(https://i.ibb.co/H4L3wVn/E-152-receiver.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/y0zg871/E-152-receiver-cover-top2.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/HKS6Lsk/E-152-right-front.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/7jHLT5K/E-152-stock-ferrule.jpg)
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I saw an early 50 for sale on a Canadian website. I asked if he could send me some pictures and he sent me this album. This is another example of a early SKS, it has a forged eyelet latch, 90 degree gas port, blade bayonet but it has a stamped star and date.
https://ibb.co/album/Vx1ggh
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I saw an early 50 for sale on a Canadian website. I asked if he could send me some pictures and he sent me this album. This is another example of a early SKS, it has a forged eyelet latch, 90 degree gas port, blade bayonet but it has a stamped star and date.
https://ibb.co/album/Vx1ggh
Very nice! Looks like lots of E series are transitional 1950.
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Before I comment, I know that there is not enough examples to draw a conclusion. What transition was done first? Did they change the engraved star and date to stamped or did they switch the 90 degree gas port to 45 first? Like the switch from spike to blade, it was documented as a time frame or until they ran out. With the change about 45 gas port or engraved cover nobody knows for sure. Something to ponder. Also looking at Matt's 50, I had at first look, thought that his carrier showed a Q on it. But when I looked closer it is actually a faulty stuck stamp. It is actually 8 8. This would match the bolt. Still no idea about the Q stamp on my other 50.
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Don't think we have enough high quality, non-suspect data to know what transitioned first. I would suspect the hand stamped star on the receiver cover was the first to transition once the roll stamp was ready as that would have been the most labor intensive item, but I've not looked at the files I have to verify that....
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I had thought that the transition from a 90 degree gas port to a 45 gas port was due to more efficient operation. But is actually weight loss. The angle of the gas ports from barrel to the gas chamber are the same as well as the inside of gas chamber.
https://ibb.co/album/DGWqCQ