SKS-FILES FORUM
Miscellaneous => Ammunition, Reloading, and Range Reports => Range Reports & Outings => Topic started by: Dannyboy53 on October 09, 2014, 06:31:06 PM
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There is a lot of discussion on the internet over whether or not a bayonet influences groups on a target. Some say extending the bayonet tightens the group, others say it has no effect. As is obvious with my /26\ 3 mill gun, extending the bayonet OPENS the group!
The target dimensions are 25" x 19" and it was mounted at a measured 25 meters. The top groups (2 each of five rounds) averaged 2" with the bayonet extended while the bottom groups with the blade folded averaged 1". I used Wolf Performance Ammo 122 grain FMJ.
Recently we found with Mary's [0306] gun, just the opposite happened! She consistently got tighter groups with her spike bayonet extended.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/26%20gun%20%203%20million%20series/NewBayonet_zps5972119a.gif)
First two groups
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/26guntarget_zps0dd22eb3.gif)
2nd groups (1st grps are circled)
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/2ndsetofgroups_zps35f256c8.jpg)
Bayonet extended, approx 2" groups on target head.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/26gunheadshot_zps77948313.jpg)
Bayonet stowed, approx 1" groups on target chest.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/26gunchest_zps398b55f9.jpg)
So we're back to the question does the bayonet really affect groups? It did with our two carbines in different ways but the bottom line is...who the hello really knows!
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Either way, that's some darn good shootn' tootn'. End of the day, with those groups, it will be dead. That's for sure.
On my M44, it's advised to shoot with blade out. If not, you'll be low right. Don't know what distance they were talking about. All I shot was 25 meters. Now if I get to a 100 or 200 yd range, then will see a big difference.
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Bass I've read about Mosins throwing off like that on the 100 yard ranges. Bayonets must have something to do with firing these old rifles but danged if I know!
The only logical explanation I have heard is running-man saying it may have something to do with barrel-ring.
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Im convinced now that its simple harmonics at play and fitment of the stock and others will play a large roll in how this effects one rifle to the next.
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The M44 and Type 53 is about the only one I've seen the drastic change in. My oldman has a Type 38 Mosin, and it shoots maybe slightly better than the M44 or Type 53.
It never occurred.to me to try an SKS, guess I always figured if I got that pissed at the target, I'd deploy the bayonet, run out and stab it. rofl rofl2
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Im convinced now that its simple harmonics at play and fitment of the stock and others will play a large roll in how this effects one rifle to the next.
Cannon I agree, there are a lot of different variables come into play when a trigger is squeezed that most shooters (like me) don't know much about. But I was surprised when I shot the first group with the bayonet extended. Based on Mary's shots a few days before I wasn't expecting mine to spread!The M44 and Type 53 is about the only one I've seen the drastic change in. My oldman has a Type 38 Mosin, and it shoots maybe slightly better than the M44 or Type 53.
It never occurred.to me to try an SKS, guess I always figured if I got that pissed at the target, I'd deploy the bayonet, run out and stab it. rofl rofl2
Greasemonkey...you ain't right!! rockon
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On barrel harmonics, many things can alter it. Take a Swiss K31 or Finnish M39, you can alter group size simply by tightening or loosening the barrel bands. Each rifle has it own sweet spot. Then a French Mas 36, they love a tight fore stock, if its loose, it will pattern like a shotgun, shim and tighten the for stock, put a little tension on the barrel, her groups will shrink greatly. Now a Mas 36 vs a Mas 36/51, typically the Mas 36/51 is a little more forgiving of a loose fore stock, but it has an attached grenade launcher to dampen barrel vibrations. Just my best guess owning and shooting them thumb1
I've wondered how much all that weight hanging there effects the rifle, is it as much as say a M44 vs a M38 Mosin. I can say the bayonet will effect a M91/30 some, just not quite as much as the Carbines, at least in my experience.
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Interesting Greasemonkey. You mentioning the barrel bands reminds me that when I got this carbine it had a jungle stock and did not shoot as well as it does with this cut-down Albanian stock. With the JS the best I was getting was 1½ to 2 inch groups. I'm going to try the same with my /26\ 11 mill spiked gun tomorrow and see what happens!
There is no doubt that stocks/bands, etc influence groups, I just had no idea it would make that much difference in these little critters.
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Damn, screwed up and learned something today.
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It's trial and error, even a caliber as small as a .17 HMR, a little 15-17 grain bullet feels effects of vibration. My Cz likes the tight bedding in the manlicher style stock, my Marlin 917v heavy barrel, if the barrel touches the stock, it's not happy. So she is free floated now.
Even tempature will effect it , my PSL, shoot it real slow, it shoots good, start rattling off shots, barrel heats up and it string shots vertically. After a cool.down, back to normal. Ambient temp and humidity can all add in to the effects, temp can effect not only the rifle, but the ammo. Hot, temp wise ammo will shoot slightly different than say frozen cold amoo.
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Greasemonkey it is amazing! There is a truckload of variables, internal and external that affect our shots. Plus I have a pair of Model 1953 eyeballs to throw in the mix!
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Even long range shots, those fellas that reach out, say a mile, they even have to deal not only wind, tempature changes up or down drafts, but as I understand, the actual rotation of the planet can come into play. The coriolis effect can alter the bullets trajectory slightly over distance, even the twist of the rifling, the direction has an effect at extreme distance. Factors such as hot spots cold spots, its all an interesting science.
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I was reading about some new fancy dan scopes that companies are coming out with and ran across this one a day or so ago, a cool 17 grand! I read the military is experimenting with something along this line. Seems like this would be too fragile for field use!
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/
It's all amazing, I'm happy just keeping the sun out of my eyes and getting focused on the front sight!
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It would be interesting to find out whether blade vs. spike is the factor on your groups being different from one gun to the other. Perhaps aerodynamics are affected at the muzzle with the different shapes coming into play so shortly after leaving the barrel.
There also is the possibility of weight, is there a significant difference between the blade and spike? I don't have a Chinese blade to compare, but if barrel harmonics are affected by whether its deployed or not, any weight difference could also be a factor.
Wouldn't it be funny if the Chinese were impressed by the accuracy of the 1949 Russians and came to the conclusion that the spike was better than the blade, and readopted it?
It might also be interesting to see what happens when a spike is on upside down. ;)
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From the , Instructions for Use and Maintenance, 7.62mm Simonov Self-loading Carbine (SKS) Military Press, Ministry of Defense of the USSR, Moscow 1963
(translated by Major J.F. Gebhardt, U.S. Army, Ret)
Page 42, Chapter VIII 79.
"Confirmation of a carbine's zero and bringing it to normal zero are accomplished by firing normal ball ammunition with steel core. all the rounds should be from the same lot.
The range of fire is 100 meters, with the sight set on 3.
The position for fire is prone with a rest. The carbine's bayonet should be in the combat position."
The stance of the USSR was that if it had a bayonet it was zeroed with it, affixed/deployed/combat position.
From the translated manual regarding M91/30, M38, M44. Page 50, Chapter 5 101.
"Confirmation of the zero of Model 1944 is conducted with the bayonet in the combat position [deployed]." Translated by Major J.F. Gebhardt, USA Ret.
http://rmt.enterprisedp.com/#anchor1212323
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That was interesting. The blade in the combat position.
I wonder if the blade was completely removed from the same firearm, what would the groups look like.
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I believe that most rifle types have what could be called their "average accuracy". Of course we rifle owners want to find that magic bullet (literally), that will improve things, or some way to tweak things around that will improve our own rifle's average accuracy.
There are so many variables to consider, that it can drive you nuts; and on top of everything, a tweak that improves your accuracy might destroy mine. :( I think that bayos are one of those tweaks. There is most assuredly going to be a difference in barrel harmonics when considering "out vs folded" position, and knowing how mysterious barrel harmonics can be, it wouldn't surprise me if some rifles shoot better with open position, and other that don't.
The fun of this whole rifle shooting thing for me is to find the easy ways to improve my rifles "average accuracy", and then post target pics that will make you jealous. :) :) jd
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I believe that most rifle types have what could be called their "average accuracy". Of course we rifle owners want to find that magic bullet (literally), that will improve things, or some way to tweak things around that will improve our own rifle's average accuracy.
There are so many variables to consider, that it can drive you nuts; and on top of everything, a tweak that improves your accuracy might destroy mine. :( I think that bayos are one of those tweaks. There is most assuredly going to be a difference in barrel harmonics when considering "out vs folded" position, and knowing how mysterious barrel harmonics can be, it wouldn't surprise me if some rifles shoot better with open position, and other that don't.
The fun of this whole rifle shooting thing for me is to find the easy ways to improve my rifles "average accuracy", and then post target pics that will make you jealous. :) :) jd
And no fair punching holes in the paper with a ball point pen either.
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Now makes one wonder, say you go through all the trouble of accurizing with bayonet extended. Using black box Wolf, you get it down to 1 1/2 - 2 inch. All the sudden Wolf does something differrnt , new powder formula, different primer, even another lot number comes.along. or heaven forbid you get a case of Bear ammo, Golden Tiger, WPA, or Red Star Romy. Your back at square one, the 3-4 inch pattern so you start all over. Blowing through a quarter to half a case to tweak it.
I went through this on a Mak 90 back then, I got her down to a loose 1 1/2 inch group, then bought a new case of ammo, same name different lot, no.clue on the differences, but it didn't shoot like the last case.
You wanna see what a rifle will really do, work your own load up and roll your own and don't count on commie ammo consistency, cause there is none. You will.have to remove the ammo variable to.control the rifle variable.
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Now makes one wonder, say you go through all the trouble of accurizing with bayonet extended. Using black box Wolf, you get it down to 1 1/2 - 2 inch. All the sudden Wolf does something differrnt , new powder formula, different primer, even another lot number comes.along. or heaven forbid you get a case of Bear ammo, Golden Tiger, WPA, or Red Star Romy. Your back at square one, the 3-4 inch pattern so you start all over. Blowing through a quarter to half a case to tweak it.
I went through this on a Mak 90 back then, I got her down to a loose 1 1/2 inch group, then bought a new case of ammo, same name different lot, no.clue on the differences, but it didn't shoot like the last case.
You wanna see what a rifle will really do, work your own load up and roll your own and don't count on commie ammo consistency, cause there is none. You will.have to remove the ammo variable to.control the rifle variable.
I agree. These milsurps are designed to be tac drivers. They were designed to get close enough and call it good. If you want tac drivers, like GM said, either roll your own, or buy match grade ammo and use different firearms. I'm talking past 300-400 yards.
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Yeah there are a lot of things to consider and in my opinion many are not worth the trouble frankly with these little critters. They are capable of only so much as far as accuracy goes. For Mary and I at least, we have reached that point with our carbines. They run very well on Wolf 122 gr FMJ as we are consistently getting 1" groups at the 25 meter targets. From what I have read and learned from you guys that's about as good as it gets! It theoretically translates to a high probability of hits to about 200 yards which is probably the longest shot one will get in our hilly, heavily wooded region.
Bass I didn't mention this in my initial post but the carbine I used did not have a bayonet when I first got it. As I said earlier it was also in a jungle stock and shooting the same ammo my best was 2" groups at 25m. Now that it's shooting tighter I'm sure going to the wood stock had a lot to do with that, but obviously the bayonet affected the groups also!
Lot numbers refer to the powder GM, and the characteristics do change from one lot to another. When Snipers change to ammo with a different lot # they must re-zero ("re-dope") their rifles.
The three carbines we have are our "SHTF" guns frankly, we don't expect extreme accuracy out of them. Just to do what they were intended to do and they do it well. That's what initially drew us to select them as our go-to guns.
BTW, routeus1 thanks for that link!
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I tried this today at the range with my newest 0406b gun. The grouping with the spike bayonet extended was literally HALF the size of the groupings with it put away! I was pretty shocked.
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I so need to try this, I just need to find the time and save up for ammo resupply...its the perfect excuse. "Gotta go shooting, we are doing this research project..."
:))
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What if :o one country bayonet is slightly heavier than another countries bayonet?
What is the ideal/least ideal bayonet weight for the highest/lowest accuracy??
Does a loose fitting bayonet cause higher or lower accuracy than a tight bayonet, because if it rattles, it could be altering barrel harmonics??
Does a bayonet thats mounted upside down effect it? What about saggy bayonets, where the bayonet doesn't contact the stock ferrule??
Do gold colored or M59 Yugo dull matte finish bayonets alter the trajectory vs a normal dull chrome finish bayonet??
Do spike bayonets cause any difference vs blade style??
Oh, and what about 3 blood groove vs 4 blood groove vs paratrooper??
Just pondering and, the only stupid question is the unasked question thumb1 rofl
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What if :o one country bayonet is slightly heavier than another countries bayonet?
What is the ideal/least ideal bayonet weight for the highest/lowest accuracy??
Does a loose fitting bayonet cause higher or lower accuracy than a tight bayonet, because if it rattles, it could be altering barrel harmonics??
Does a bayonet thats mounted upside down effect it? What about saggy bayonets, where the bayonet doesn't contact the stock ferrule??
Do gold colored or M59 Yugo dull matte finish bayonets alter the trajectory vs a normal dull chrome finish bayonet??
Do spike bayonets cause any difference vs blade style??
Oh, and what about 3 blood groove vs 4 blood groove vs paratrooper??
Just pondering and, the only stupid question is the unasked question thumb1 rofl
I shoot .22 benchrest and barrel tuning is a hardcore science in that field, so I know a "little" about it (just getting into it).
When you fire a rifle, the barrel flexes up and down (kinda like those old movies of bridges flexing and collapsing during high winds) to a specific harmonic. The end of the barrel is usually in a different "point of flex" at the time the bullet exits it. The idea behind tuning, is to get the barrel to be in the same "point of flex" every time a shot is fired so that the bullet follows the same path every time.
My personal feeling is that the spike bayo acts more like a vibration buffer, since it's a more rigid piece of metal. The blade bayo flexes way more and I think the blade type ADDS to the barrel flex issue.
That's my view though and I have nothing to back that up. Maybe I'll try this again with my Yugo and see how the blade bayo affects it.
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So, basically, there is to many variables across the spectrum, because I haven't even broached ammo consistency, yet chuckles1 I mean, come on, we have steel cased, bi-metal jacketed rounds mass produced at a million plus rounds a day with outdated worn equipment, dubious quality assurance, with a round here, a round there inspections. All the while being built with components made by the lowest bidder. I mean x39 isn't and was never designed for or by any means some hoopty Lake City uber target grade blow a gnats azz off at 2million yards ammo, heck it ain't even as good as Swiss GP11 everyday run of the mill milsurp stuff. It's cheap commie ammo from commie weapons which used correctly and within it's limitations, do the job as intended, put bunches of holes in stuff. thumb1 chuckles1
But, :o in theory, just eliminating the ammo aspect, controlling that aspect alone, should contribute greatly to accuracy. In the same theory, you could conceivably create a load for bayonets in and bayonet extended, because each different loading should or could create a different barrel harmonic.
OR!!!!
Just load, shoot and enjoy the dang thing, repeat, most importantly learn it inside and out, and quit making it harder than it really is. chuckles1 rofl2 thumb1 rofl
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I tried this today at the range with my newest 0406b gun. The grouping with the spike bayonet extended was literally HALF the size of the groupings with it put away! I was pretty shocked.
Power I'm glad you tried and experienced the same thing! Now I don't feel like I'm crazy, or wonder if others are thinking I've lost what little I have left.
Greasemonkey I chuckled through your post but the truth is all these things probably do affect our groups to some degree! This is a science I don't think anyone will ever fully understand.
This makes me think about Bow shooters, they use dampers and swear it works to smooth out vibration. I guess bayonets do the same.
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Danny, your crazy in your own special way thumb1 chuckles1 but, many weapons are effected, not just the SKS by the bayonet, a M44/Type 53 Mosin is another perfect example. Just unfolding the bayonet on one of my M44s has the same effect as say, changing from Russian ammo to Bulgarian ammo in the point of impact, now the kicker, another M44 Mosin, displays little change extended or folded.
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Greasemonkey my Mary thinks the same thing about me! But YOU are the prize winner! :)
All this is weird. I first started hearing about all this by the Mosin shooters on the web and decided to try it with our SKS. As I posted a while back, Mary's [0306] gun closes the group with the spike bayonet extended and the groups from my /26\ gun double in spread with the blade bayonet extended! I haven't yet tried our other /26\ gun with the spike bayonet, but I'm curious what it will do.
I remember you telling how much difference the fitting of the bands on some rifles will make in POI. I can imagine back in the day some soldier being accustomed to how his rifle is hitting only to break it down for cleaning and discovering his point of impact has changed!
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Just load, shoot and enjoy the dang thing, repeat, most importantly learn it inside and out, and quit making it harder than it really is. chuckles1 rofl2 thumb1 rofl
This. No offense to those doing research, I just don't have enough time or ammo to do it so I don't worry about it.
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I've got a couple of Ruger Mini 14's, and some of the diehards swear by barrel struts as the only way to make them accurate. Kind of seems like the same idea as the bayonet being attached to the barrel in two spots when it is extended on an SKS.
http://www.accu-strut.com/ (http://www.accu-strut.com/)
http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm (http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm)
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Carl I understand what you are saying, I don't shoot as much as I want to or even need to but decided to do this out of curiosity. Besides...I needed the practice!
Interesting info Brian and thanks for the links.
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I've got a couple of Ruger Mini 14's, and some of the diehards swear by barrel struts as the only way to make them accurate. Kind of seems like the same idea as the bayonet being attached to the barrel in two spots when it is extended on an SKS.
http://www.accu-strut.com/ (http://www.accu-strut.com/)
http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-:Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm (http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm)
Mini 14, I owned one, I did the knock an inch of the barrel trick and recorded, it helped some in my case, but once I got my meat hooks on the Cz Varmint Kevlar in .223, the Mini was a thing of the past. I'm sure if I were to throw enough money, parts and time, it might approach the accuracy of the Cz, but again, it may not.
It's things like this were the lines blur, does one just buy a naturally accurate rifle and spend time and money practicing, or buy a not so accurate rifle and throw money and time at it and hope it becomes accurate through trial and error wasting time tweaking, adding this or that. And in the end have a Frankenstein that cost more more in the end than the more accurate weapon. In the end a weapon is only as good as the sum of the parts, the person shooting said weapon and ammo its fed.
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Mini 14, I owned one, I did the knock an inch of the barrel trick and recorded, it helped some in my case, but once I got my meat hooks on the Cz Varmint Kevlar in .223, the Mini was a thing of the past. I'm sure if I were to throw enough money, parts and time, it might approach the accuracy of the Cz, but again, it may not.
It's things like this were the lines blur, does one just buy a naturally accurate rifle and spend time and money practicing, or buy a not so accurate rifle and throw money and time at it and hope it becomes accurate through trial and error wasting time tweaking, adding this or that. And in the end have a Frankenstein that cost more more in the end than the more accurate weapon. In the end a weapon is only as good as the sum of the parts, the person shooting said weapon and ammo its fed.
Both of my Mini 14's are relatively stock, one ranch rifle and one none ranch rifle. The RR has an aftermarket synthetic stock, and a cheap 3x9x40 scope. Both are far from tack drivers, but I use my RR for coyotes and other varmints and it hits what I aim at. Rarely shoot paper unless I am double checking the scope. There are plenty of better more accurate 223's out there, but I own several Ruger's and have had pretty good luck with them.
I agree on the statement regarding buying a rifle and throwing money at it to try to make it something it is not, or just spend that money on a naturally accurate rifle. If I was looking for a tack driving 223 a semi auto it would not be. :)
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Some what off subject, but, on target as well. I have some friends that shoot everything they own suppressed.
They have found that while there is a small POI change with the suppessor on a standard or bull barell the change is greatly magnified to shot gun patterns on a fluted barell. This has to be due to harmonics, barell flex and the weight out on the end of the barell.
I am working with one of them on a load for his Ruger American rifle in 7.62x39 in an effort to get it to group with a suppressor. Nice rifle and groups when naked but all over the paper with a can on it. The .270 with the fluted barell just needs to be rebarelled to run suppressed, it can't be corrected with what ever we run through it, accurate enough for deer or hogs with out the weight hanging on the end though. CMD