Author Topic: Spanish Mauser  (Read 370 times)

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Offline Greatguns

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Spanish Mauser
« on: May 21, 2021, 01:42:17 PM »
So, I'm looking at a couple of Fabrica De Armas, M15 and M16, Spanish Mausers that have been re-chambered into .308. I have heard that they don't always hold up well with commercial .308 but only the 7.62NATO rounds. Anybody have info on that? I am aware the headspace should be checked before used, just can't remember if there was anything else to be aware of.
Also, Are these the Mausers they make kits to convert to x39 rifles for?
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2021, 02:44:51 PM »
I have a M1916 Spanish in 7.62.. I shoot the same ammo through it I do my Ishapore Enfields and have never had an issue. If and when I have put .308 through either, it's mundane nothing special White box stuff, I know I have shot several boxes of the Czech surplus S&B .308 through both, never the hot or potent hunting ammo. Over the years, I've never seen any change in head space. I believe the M1916 was also redone and can be found in 8mm Mauser at times, also the M1916 can uncommoinly be found redone as the FR 7.
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Offline Greatguns

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2021, 03:49:41 PM »
Is there much difference between the M1915 and M1916?
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2021, 06:06:47 PM »
Is there much difference between the M1915 and M1916?

Never heard of that.. Spain had a M1913 variant..just prior to the M1916, very, very low production and pretty uncommon compared to the rest of the variants. It was more of a field trial rifle.. but Spain went from the M1895 almost straight to the M1916 with only that little bit of the M1913..
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Offline Greatguns

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2021, 06:30:58 PM »
Pics don't give me good arsenal stamp info to tell, just what the listing said. I'm thinking he either missed typed and got a 5 for the 6 or he meant M1913. I'm bettin' a typo on the M1916 though.
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

Offline Bacarnal

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2021, 12:18:42 AM »
Had a neighbor across the street from me in 2002 or 2003 shoot one with Winchester brand .308.  Blew out the barrel in front of the receiver on the left side, right where he was holding it.  Literally took off a part of his thumb.  He went running across to my house bleeding all over the place and scaring the wife (now ex).  I got home a few minutes later and applied pressure to his pressure point until a nurse from up the street could get there.  Afterwards helped the state trooper locate pieces of the rifle and digits.
In my understanding, the barrels were designed to withstand the 7.62X51 CETME pressures which are a little less than 7.62X41 NATO.  Kinda like the difference between 9mm Glisenti and 9mm Parabellum.

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2021, 01:32:53 AM »
One thing is most have a oval gas relief hole or port on the left side of the receiver and bolt, but there were some that never received that update.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 02:20:36 AM by Greasemonkey »
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun Ė take the cannoli.

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Offline Greatguns

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2021, 11:49:27 AM »
I just looked and they both have the hole. Now that you mentioned it Bacarnal, I do recall hearing something about those being re-chambered for the weaker CETME round and not the higher pressure x51 NATO from the US.

Still wanting to know about re-chambering to 7.62x39 vaguely remember a kit for about $200 or so. Is that a thing or am I dreaming?
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2021, 01:12:38 PM »
In todays times.. the odds finding a small ring 7.62x39 Mauser barrel are as great as finding the Ruger your after.. but.. it can be done. Same with the Arisaka.. thats a common conversion to x39. You damn sure ain't gonna blow that action up. One option.. how deep is that wallet... Convert a blank barrel for a x54r or a .303 Brit... thread, chop and rechamber.. place a custom order, some one like Green Mountain barrels could possibly accommodate. And either method, your going to need to set head space, and possibly a slightly modified extractor.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/48800

https://www.troupsystems.com/product/mauser-7-6239-military-barrel/
« Last Edit: May 22, 2021, 01:20:44 PM by Greasemonkey »
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun Ė take the cannoli.

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Offline Greatguns

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2021, 01:57:13 PM »
Yeah, I'm finding out as I do searches, Nobody ain't got nuttin'. I did find a good thread on the M1916 Spanish Mausers on Calguns(forgot I was a member there, LOL) mentioning they were indeed rechambered in .308 CETME with pressures likened to the .300 Savage round.

AND, if I can get a Savage Axis II in .308 with a scope already mounted for $400 or less why bother, other than the experience of playing around with the Mauser.

Screw it, I'll just have to keep waiting for a RAR to come available at a regular price. Thanks for the input guys.
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2021, 07:16:51 PM »
There's always a chance with an ~100 year old firearm that it may fail; worn lugs and/or headspace fails a field gauge, obstructed bore from bad ammo (and operator failure to notice the squib), over-loaded handload, but in general I wouldn't be concerned about running 7.62x51mm milspec (M80) or lighter bullet .308 through these rifles. I believe proof loads are about 10% above max spec (open to correction on that point), but in this article they describe going to 78% over max pressure to obtain a failure.




Offline Bacarnal

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2021, 04:10:27 PM »
I bought one of the 1916's from Rose's in the late '80's/ early '90's and found out after buying about the lower chamber pressures.  Took it back to them and traded out for an SKS IIRC.  Don't remember what happened to that one... nea1

Offline firstchoice

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2021, 06:05:24 AM »
I have a M1916 Spanish in 7.62.. I shoot the same ammo through it I do my Ishapore Enfields and have never had an issue. If and when I have put .308 through either, it's mundane nothing special White box stuff, I know I have shot several boxes of the Czech surplus S&B .308 through both, never the hot or potent hunting ammo. Over the years, I've never seen any change in head space. I believe the M1916 was also redone and can be found in 8mm Mauser at times, also the M1916 can uncommoinly be found redone as the FR 7.

GM, I ran across this thread and saw your input on the ammo for Ishapore Enfields using the 7.62x51 round. Are you comfortable shooting .308 Winchester ammo through your Ishy 2A's? I have some of the 2A's but I've held off shooting them due to the question on ammo. That and I'm trying to figure out how much do I remove of the protective black paint they put on them for storage or shipping? Not sure why it was slathered on for any reason as hard as it appears to be to remove! I remember Phos32 telling me what the black paint was called but can't recall the name.

Anyway, what's the consensus on using the .308 in the 2A's? Anyone that has the Ishapore Enfield 2A's please throw in your $.02!

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2021, 10:54:00 AM »
Iíll shoot 7.62x51 M80 but thatís all. I donít have any firm information or testing to back that up, just my choice. The paint was part of the finish as issued for use, not a storage/shipping add-on. It chips and looks rough but thatís the nature of the beast.

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2021, 12:57:47 PM »
FC

I have used the lower end plane jane mundane .308 in them, am I comfortable, I have a set of head space gauges, Forester Nato gauges that I can check the M1916, FR 8s and Ishapores  and others with if needed, plus I do not put a steady diet our use them for constant shooters. The one FR 8 I have, I've shot the most has shown no change in 15 years, it's been fed the same diet mix.. 308 and Nato. 

Fuzzy disclaimer... Do I recommend it, I can't because I don't know ones comfort or technical level, condition of the ammo being used and most certainly don't know the condition of the weapons one has. I know my comfort/technical level, the ammo I have and the rifles I have. I have never heard of one really exploding, I've heard of cracked cases, torn off case heads, broken extractors, etc, but... was it an ammo issue, or rifle issue, hand loads, hot hunting loads.. in reality... speculation aside... what was the root cause issue? Any of those things can happen in any firearm, using surplus ammo, age and internal case corrosion can affect case integrity, powder breakdown due to temp and humidity can all cause those things.  The Nato/308 debate has raged on for decades, like 223/5.56 has..
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun Ė take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline firstchoice

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2021, 03:48:09 AM »
Iíll shoot 7.62x51 M80 but thatís all. I donít have any firm information or testing to back that up, just my choice. The paint was part of the finish as issued for use, not a storage/shipping add-on. It chips and looks rough but thatís the nature of the beast.

Was the Ishapore Enfield 2A designed to shoot anything besides the 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition? (Not talking about the .308 Winchester issue here) My question is, was there any other 7.62x51mm ammo, other than rounds like the M80 and the standard mix of NATO rounds, used during the early '60's and afterward that were supposed to be used with the 2A?

I guess I had misunderstood the use of that black paint. Mine are so gunked up with it I just figured they had to be cleaned of the paint to cycle the actions smootly. That, and the magazines are just slathered in it.







If that is the case, then I guess I won't be keeping mine "as-issued". I can clean that up all day long and they'd still look like...well, you know. I may skin the black paint off of the one I want to keep and shoot and leave the others "as-issued". It will depend on how difficult it is to remove it.

Thanks for the input Phos32!

FC

I have used the lower end plane jane mundane .308 in them, am I comfortable, I have a set of head space gauges, Forester Nato gauges that I can check the M1916, FR 8s and Ishapores  and others with if needed, plus I do not put a steady diet our use them for constant shooters. The one FR 8 I have, I've shot the most has shown no change in 15 years, it's been fed the same diet mix.. 308 and Nato. 

Fuzzy disclaimer... Do I recommend it, I can't because I don't know ones comfort or technical level, condition of the ammo being used and most certainly don't know the condition of the weapons one has. I know my comfort/technical level, the ammo I have and the rifles I have. I have never heard of one really exploding, I've heard of cracked cases, torn off case heads, broken extractors, etc, but... was it an ammo issue, or rifle issue, hand loads, hot hunting loads.. in reality... speculation aside... what was the root cause issue? Any of those things can happen in any firearm, using surplus ammo, age and internal case corrosion can affect case integrity, powder breakdown due to temp and humidity can all cause those things.  The Nato/308 debate has raged on for decades, like 223/5.56 has..

When the early '80's were roaring with the cool new imports, I bought one of the HK-91's for around $550.00 NIB. I bought about 5,000 rds of various ammo in both 7.62x51 NATO and the .308 Winchester. Much of the .308 was commercial hunting rds. in several bullet weights and types. I shot a bit of everything through the HK-91. Not saying it was the right thing or the safe thing to do. I wasn't that well versed in the differences between the two types. After I sold the HK-91, (stupid thing to do but the money was right), I kept a lot of the expensive commercial ammo and a 1,000 rds or so of the surplus stuff. I have everything from Israeli 7.62 AP to US 7.62 LC ball and tracer ammo. A lot of imported surplus. I just didn't know what I should, and should not try in the 2A's.

Thanks for the input, GM!

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 02:17:42 PM »
Iíll shoot 7.62x51 M80 but thatís all. I donít have any firm information or testing to back that up, just my choice. The paint was part of the finish as issued for use, not a storage/shipping add-on. It chips and looks rough but thatís the nature of the beast.

Was the Ishapore Enfield 2A designed to shoot anything besides the 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition? (Not talking about the .308 Winchester issue here) My question is, was there any other 7.62x51mm ammo, other than rounds like the M80 and the standard mix of NATO rounds, used during the early '60's and afterward that were supposed to be used with the 2A?




India went from .303 to 7.62 Nato far as I know.. unlike Spain who had the 7.62 Cetme round, then switched to Nato ammo later. Also India is not a member of Nato... so I'm sure what they....India deems Nato spec and what Nato deems as Nato spec ammo could be 2 different things..  Most of the Indian ammo I've seen is 145-149 grain 70's and 80's.. Some say its fair to middling, somewhat ok, to it's horrible depending on whos lips it rolls off of.  At some point I think Britain pulled away from India in late 70's-80's, but I believe the actual rifles were built while under British supervision, and I'm sure that was the driving factor in a Nato round and such, so at least maybe there was some level of quality control. The one thing I have seen thats somewhat consistent outside of all the other stuff...... don't use steel case ammo in them.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun Ė take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Online running-man

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Re: Spanish Mauser
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2021, 05:23:42 PM »
India remained in the Commonwealth of Nations (think Canada, New Zealand, Australia) after their declaration as a republic (and the adoption of their constitution) in 1950, so it was not inconceivable that they could follow the UK's lead and adopt the NATO round the British were using.  Interestingly enough, the Indian government also had a very special relationship with the Soviet Union at this time and undoubtably played one side off the other to garner favorable aid. (and the Russians certainly played the Indians and Chinese against each other too!)

Based on that, the possible paths they had were to use a 7.62 round used by NATO, use a 7.62 round used by the Soviet Union, or strike out on their own and develop a new one or utilize a commercial round.  Certainly looks like the British won out; that would be a very interesting read to see how they came to the conclusion that following the UK was in their best interests...