Author Topic: 1950 transitions (Read 8627 times)

jstin2 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2021, 08:37:18 PM »

What made me question the stock, is the picture in your album that is upside down showing serial number on receiver. It looks like the taper of a spike stock. Like I said before, maybe camera angle distortion.

running-man · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2021, 12:10:06 AM »

I have two guns with the same prefix in my files, they are:

ИЯ669 (not so great photos, but looks to be an early hoop takedown):

ИЯ721 (much better photos, but a much different takedown lever):

It could easily be that the 721 gun had the takedown lever replaced at refurb, but why with a long tab model and not the standard short tab that was universal from late '50 on?

Another thought is that they were utilizing what they had during these transitional '50s and the ИЯ prefix happens to have both style of takedown levers based on what OEM hardware they had available. Obviously CZ315's '50 above is ~1.5k units after these two, yet still has the early hoop, so the transition doesn't appear to have been a clean one at S/N XXXX but rather phased in over many guns. That's more plausible in my mind; we see this with the OEM hardwood vs laminate stocks on the '56-58 letter suffix series as well...

Cz315 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2021, 11:17:29 AM »

Here are some additional pics https://ibb.co/album/chFYns hopefully the 1950 date remnants are seen on those. The Tula star is barely visible and any remains of the serials are way too faint.

Sadly, not a spiker. It'd be pretty cool.

As far as milled tab I can totally see why it didn't last long, the stamped one is incredibly more robust and cheap!

I guess we'll never know whether it was a gradual transition or a change during refurb on that 721. My guess would be a change at refurb, but the other option is just as likely. How many examples of stamped looped latch are there?

running-man · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2021, 12:57:10 PM »

Stamped loop latches are rare as hens teeth. I think I have only 3 examples in my files. I might not believe they existed if I hadn't seen them with my own eyes. It's clear that it was not a common feature in these transitional 50's

Long tab are much more often seen (yet still not common), but they are still confined to a set of prefixes from 1950 only. For example, you *never* see a long tab on a 1951 SKS45. This is what makes me think that the refurbishment of 721 is a less likely scenario than that tab being on the gun at build time. Another Q I have is why would they have replaced the tab on a brand new 1950 gun with another 1950 specific tab? Did it break before it went into the crate at Tula? I'd think if it did get broken later, say in 1951+, it would be replaced with what OEM stock was available at the time (which is the short tab version exclusively from '51 on.)

I don't like to draw conclusions based on 1 or 2 examples in a set. Too many oddities can happen that throw you off the correct path. I don't discount Jstin2's spiker at all as it's a really neat unique specimen, but I also am not ready to give my 100% approval of the hypothesis either. We continue to look for more examples and other data points like bunker & pcke's historical analyses which help to paint a better picture of what was going on at the time.

jstin2 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2021, 07:13:47 PM »

The replacement to a long tab may have been due to the diameter of the retaining pin on the take down latch. Later latches had a larger diameter pin. Early 50 receiver covers had a smaller opening for the retaining pin.

running-man · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2021, 11:08:00 PM »

It could be, but there are numerous examples of '49 covers on non '49 guns with short tab latches and they fit just fine.

The long tab latch being a refurbishment part just doesn't sit well with me. The database only has these prefixes with that feature and they are *all* '50 guns:
ДА
ДО
ИЯ
ЛМ
ЛЮ (x5)
СА (x2)
СК
СМ
СН (x2)
СО (x4)
СЯ (x3)
ША
ШГ
ШН

You'd think some non-'50's would have popped up with a long tab if they were used in refurb. I don't even have any "unknown year" categorized heavy refurb guns with the long tab, and there are quite a few of those.

jstin2 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 28, 2021, 11:37:47 PM »

The channel for a 49 and early 50 on the receiver cover is smaller. So unless modification(smaller retaining pin) was installed on short tab shaft it would not work. Then again it would not take much to drill a hole in a blank shaft and put in a smaller pin. This would be easier than altering receiver cover channel.
https://ibb.co/album/d36tFa

jstin2 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2021, 06:27:55 AM »

I saw a 1957 SKS for sale and it had a 49 receiver cover. It shows that the receiver cover was modified to fit the latch pin. Also receiver cover was scrubbed and matching serial number stamped. The picture of receiver cover with matching serial number shows that cover does not fit flush with receiver. Does this show that when scrubbed, enough metal is removed so it does not sit flush with receiver?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/klmvm9veigkd15n/AAAenUp8A2Gys8tPFv-8CRONa?dl=0

running-man · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2021, 10:27:08 AM »

Good pic of the mod. The square keyway certainly looks hand worked with it being offset a bit like that. Definitely a 'file to fit' operation there.

Sometimes scrubbed S/N receiver covers fit nicely, other times they fit poorly. I suspect it's based on how much material has to be removed to obliterate the previous S/N plus how well the part is within tolerance in the first place. It also has a bit to do with the skill of the technician who did the work. Some scrubbed covers are noticeable from a mile away, with others, you'd be hard pressed to find the smallest indication that they were even scrubbed.

jaroslav · « **Reply #29 on:** March 29, 2021, 08:50:06 PM »

jstin2, I want to bring your attention to something else.
On your file of the SKS 1950 I noticed, that #1 has a 49 rear sight leaf ( a notch on the top of the #10)
There are no pix of the rear sight from #2 to #8.
#9 has a different rear sight leaf ( the notch is in the middle of the #10)
When the transition started?

jstin2 · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2021, 10:32:00 PM »

jaroslav- hate to tell you but last year I got rid of the majority of my collection. Thus I cannot tell you when the change was made. A buddy of mine bought the early 50 with blade so I can ask him to email me some pictures. Other than that, other collectors will have to check theirs. It is amazing how avid SKS owners are finding new revelations on the SKS. Cleaning rod nubs - even to staggered, piston rod changes, receiver cover takedown levers, safety lever ridges and style and now the rear sight leaf. PS, I can not take any credit for this, but am thankful that I took pictures of my collection to help further information. If you have the know how to transfer the pictures to show the difference, please post. I had to go between pictures several times before I noticed what you had mentioned.

pcke2000 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2021, 11:48:12 PM »

Quote from: jaroslav on March 29, 2021, 08:50:06 PM

jstin2, I want to bring your attention to something else.
On your file of the SKS 1950 I noticed, that #1 has a 49 rear sight leaf ( a notch on the top of the #10)
There are no pix of the rear sight from #2 to #8.
#9 has a different rear sight leaf ( the notch is in the middle of the #10)
When the transition started?

I would say possibly sometime in 1950-1951. I just quickly checked some pics of my rifles:

(1) refurb 1949 (OP series): notch on the top of the #10
(2) 2 refurb early transitional 1950 (both EV series): notch on the top of the #10
(3) Non-refurb 1951 (KP series): notch is in the middle/at bottom of the #10

jstin2 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 30, 2021, 07:48:49 AM »

Another transition brought up by Phosphorus32 in his post - 1949 Tula Redux, was gas piston change. Here are pictures of my early 50 and a 54. 50 on the right

https://ibb.co/album/5x1ZfM

Another item brought up in that post by pcke2000 was the change in the safety lever - Grooves and defined shape. 50 on the left.

https://ibb.co/album/FkZhjC

jstin2 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 30, 2021, 10:30:50 AM »

Took pictures of my early 50 and 54 to show differences on the rear sight brought up by jaroslav.

https://ibb.co/album/25wwy2

jaroslav · « **Reply #34 on:** March 30, 2021, 08:10:58 PM »

Quote from: jstin2 on March 30, 2021, 10:30:50 AM

Took pictures of my early 50 and 54 to show differences on the rear sight brought up by jaroslav.

https://ibb.co/album/25wwy2

The 50 is on the right.

Hotrod · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2021, 09:41:37 PM »

Here’s my early 50

Justin Hell · « **Reply #36 on:** March 31, 2021, 11:52:25 PM »

Whew!
I for a minute there thought I had bought the wrong leaf for a minute there...when I specifically thought what I have was right, as I had to replace it. Mine came with a William's peep.

jstin2 · « **Reply #37 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:03:43 PM »

A fellow collector sent me a picture of his early 49 SKS. More to come. Cleaning rod nubs are even and no rivet in the magazine. I added his picture of the safety lever as it does not have any ridges.

https://ibb.co/album/FkZhjC

running-man · « **Reply #38 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:24:57 PM »

Now that is interesting! Not only does it lack the knurling, the flag portion is several mm short.

Good stuff jstin2!

Cz315 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 01, 2021, 02:31:36 PM »

Just checked mine and it still has top 10 and early groove directions. Pics to follow.

EDIT: pics attached.

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Author Topic: 1950 transitions (Read 8627 times)