Author Topic: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine  (Read 893 times)

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Online Phosphorus32

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Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« on: August 16, 2022, 02:17:40 PM »
I recently picked up this M1 Carbine on GunBroker, as I close in on completing a collection of the 11 main manufacturing variants. The last two slots that I have to fill are Saginaw S'G' and Standard Products.  Saginaw Steering Gear is responsible for three of the 11 manufacturing marking variations: Saginaw S.G. produced in Saginaw MI at their main production plant; Saginaw S'G' produced at the Grand Rapids plant that was the site of the Irwin-Pedersen facility before Saginaw took over; and Saginaw produced a few thousand M1 Carbines with" Irwin-Pedersen" stamped receivers after they took over the contract from Irwin-Pedersen. Irwin-Pedersen failed to have any M1 Carbines accepted by US Army Ordnance.

The serial number indicates this was from the first 31K produced by Saginaw Steering Gear and it came off the line in September 1943. Saginaw started production in May 1943 at their main plant in Saginaw and ramped up to a rapid production rate, about 1000 per day in September. Saginaw delivered a sub-total of 293,592 M1 Carbines from their Saginaw plant and a total from both the Saginaw and Grand Rapids plants of 517,212. Since Inland was also a division of General Motors, and they produced the largest number by far, General Motors overall was responsible for the production and delivery of just over 2.9 million M1 and M1A1 (paratrooper) Carbines in WWII.

The S.G. example shown here is a correct , or quite likely a corrected, Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine. All of the markings are correct for an S.G. carbine including the Irwin Pedersen buttplate. The flat front sling swivel w/o bayonet lug, high wood stock, two rivet handguard, flip rear sight, and flat bolt are all correct features for this era of WWII production. I'd lean toward corrected because the operating slide and bolt both appear to have more wear than the barreled receiver. Looking at the auction photos, I was a bit concerned that the stock markings looked too clean. When I got it and could examine it closely and compare to photos in Larry Ruth's "War Baby" it was clear that the US Ordnance crossed-cannons acceptance marking was the unique Saginaw type and differs in easy to spot details from the stamps available from vendors. The other markings are consistent with it being an original stock, possibly from a presentation rifle. I still can't say with 100% certainty on the stock. The barreled-action I am certain is original. The S.G. marked barrel with P proof 4-5 inches below that is correct, the unmarked front sight with the shallow groove behind the blade is correct for Saginaw, and there are no signs on the barrel finish that the front sight has been removed/replaced.

Markings
Saginaw S.G.: receiver, barrel
SG:  trigger housing, hammer, operating rod, bolt lug, firing pin, recoil lug, right side of stock
S: rear sight base
RSG: stock (105B), handguard, provided by Rock-Ola
E-SG: magazine catch, subcontractor: Eaton Pond Co.
O SG: magazine, subcontractor: Owens Illinois Can Co.
IP-PM: Irwin-Pedersen subcontractor Pross Mfg., 2000 known to be transferred to Saginaw MI plant.

3281728 is from the 3250000 to 3651000 serial number block assigned to Saginaw S.G. (not all numbers were used)


































































« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 02:23:30 PM by Phosphorus32 »

Offline Bacarnal

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2022, 08:57:11 PM »
Extremely nice example, Jon.  Even though the stamps on the right side look too clean, you can't argue with the RSG in the sling well.  I can only speculate, but this could have been a presentation gun, a lunch box special, or a rifle issued to a Stateside unit/entity and stored till Wars end the "lost" from the records.  Looks to be all as issued.  Great one thumb1

Offline running-man

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2022, 10:05:50 AM »
Extremely nice example, Jon.  Even though the stamps on the right side look too clean, you can't argue with the RSG in the sling well.  I can only speculate, but this could have been a presentation gun, a lunch box special, or a rifle issued to a Stateside unit/entity and stored till Wars end the "lost" from the records.  Looks to be all as issued.  Great one thumb1

I was going to say this one gave me the heebie jeebies, but I don't know jack about M1 Carbines (and I also try to never call anyone's baby ugly!).  If you're comfy with it then thumb1.  It certainly is a very nice example!
      

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2022, 11:36:02 AM »
Extremely nice example, Jon.  Even though the stamps on the right side look too clean, you can't argue with the RSG in the sling well.  I can only speculate, but this could have been a presentation gun, a lunch box special, or a rifle issued to a Stateside unit/entity and stored till Wars end the "lost" from the records.  Looks to be all as issued.  Great one thumb1

Thanks Bruce! When I got it, I read the sections of Larry Ruth's book on the Saginaw contracts and was interested in the presentation and lunch box specials as well. I figure they are rare as heck to run across, but perhaps this is one of them.

Online Phosphorus32

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2022, 11:41:50 AM »
Extremely nice example, Jon.  Even though the stamps on the right side look too clean, you can't argue with the RSG in the sling well.  I can only speculate, but this could have been a presentation gun, a lunch box special, or a rifle issued to a Stateside unit/entity and stored till Wars end the "lost" from the records.  Looks to be all as issued.  Great one thumb1

I was going to say this one gave me the heebie jeebies, but I don't know jack about M1 Carbines (and I also try to never call anyone's baby ugly!).  If you're comfy with it then thumb1.  It certainly is a very nice example!

Yup, my spidey-senses were up on the boxed-SG and crossed cannons Ordnance marking during the auction, but the metal looked legit, so I bid to win with the caveat in my mind that the stock might need replacing. I feel good about the stock and the whole gun after seeing it in person. 

Offline Papahound

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2023, 03:31:38 AM »

I would definitely say that is probably the nicest m1 I have ever seen , possibly unissued , even the cartouche looks like it was just struck !!

Definitely a nice addition to any collection  clap1


Online Phosphorus32

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Re: Saginaw S.G. M1 Carbine
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2023, 11:15:52 AM »
Thanks!

I’ve gone back and forth on this one. The more I study the parts finish, the more I lean back towards a “corrected” version. The barrel finish wear looks like it probably had a barrel band with the bayonet lug mounted at one point.

Regardless, I think the parts are legitimate and it’s a good looking carbine.