Shooting with/without bayonets

[Dannyboy53]

There is a lot of discussion on the internet over whether or not a bayonet influences groups on a target. Some say extending the bayonet tightens the group, others say it has no effect. As is obvious with my /26\ 3 mill gun, extending the bayonet OPENS the group!

The target dimensions are 25" x 19" and it was mounted at a measured 25 meters. The top groups (2 each of five rounds) averaged 2" with the bayonet extended while the bottom groups with the blade folded averaged 1". I used Wolf Performance Ammo 122 grain FMJ.

Recently we found with Mary's [0306] gun, just the opposite happened! She consistently got tighter groups with her spike bayonet extended.




First two groups


2nd groups (1st grps are circled)


Bayonet extended, approx 2" groups on target head.


Bayonet stowed, approx 1" groups on target chest.


So we're back to the question does the bayonet really affect groups? It did with our two carbines in different ways but the bottom line is...who the hello really knows!

[Lmbass14]

Either way, that's some darn good shootn' tootn'.  End of the day, with those groups, it will be dead.  That's for sure.

On my M44, it's advised to shoot with blade out.  If not, you'll be low right.  Don't know what distance they were talking about.  All I shot was 25 meters.  Now if I get to a 100 or 200 yd range, then will see a big difference.

[Dannyboy53]

Bass I've read about Mosins throwing off like that on the 100 yard ranges. Bayonets must have something to do with firing these old rifles but danged if I know!

The only logical explanation I have heard is running-man saying it may have something to do with barrel-ring.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Im convinced now that its simple harmonics at play and fitment of the stock and others will play a large roll in how this effects one rifle to the next.

[Greasemonkey]

The M44 and Type 53 is about the only one I've seen the drastic change in. My oldman has a Type 38 Mosin, and it shoots maybe slightly better than the M44 or Type 53.

It never occurred.to me to try an SKS, guess I always figured if I got that pissed at the target, I'd deploy the bayonet, run out and stab it.

[Dannyboy53]

Im convinced now that its simple harmonics at play and fitment of the stock and others will play a large roll in how this effects one rifle to the next.

Cannon I agree, there are a lot of different variables come into play when a trigger is squeezed that most shooters (like me) don't know much about. But I was surprised when I shot the first group with the bayonet extended. Based on Mary's shots a few days before I wasn't expecting mine to spread!

The M44 and Type 53 is about the only one I've seen the drastic change in. My oldman has a Type 38 Mosin, and it shoots maybe slightly better than the M44 or Type 53.

It never occurred.to me to try an SKS, guess I always figured if I got that pissed at the target, I'd deploy the bayonet, run out and stab it.

Greasemonkey...you ain't right!!

[Greasemonkey]

On barrel harmonics, many things can alter it. Take a Swiss K31 or Finnish M39,  you can alter group size simply by tightening or loosening the barrel bands. Each rifle has it own sweet spot. Then a French Mas 36, they love a tight fore stock, if its loose, it will pattern like a shotgun, shim and tighten the for stock, put a little tension on the barrel, her groups will shrink greatly.  Now a Mas 36 vs a Mas 36/51, typically the Mas 36/51 is a little more forgiving of a loose fore stock, but it has an attached grenade launcher to dampen barrel vibrations. Just my best guess owning and shooting them

I've wondered how much all that weight hanging there effects the rifle, is it as much as say a M44 vs a M38 Mosin. I can say the bayonet will effect a M91/30 some, just not quite as much as the Carbines, at least in my experience.

[Dannyboy53]

Interesting Greasemonkey. You mentioning the barrel bands reminds me that when I got this carbine it had a jungle stock and did not shoot as well as it does with this cut-down Albanian stock. With the JS the best I was getting was 1½ to 2 inch groups. I'm going to try the same with my /26\ 11 mill spiked gun tomorrow and see what happens!

There is no doubt that stocks/bands, etc influence groups, I just had no idea it would make that much difference in these little critters.

[Lmbass14]

Damn, screwed up and learned something today. 

[Greasemonkey]

It's trial and error, even a caliber as small as a .17 HMR, a little 15-17 grain bullet feels effects of vibration. My Cz likes the tight bedding in the manlicher style stock, my Marlin 917v heavy barrel, if the barrel touches the stock, it's not happy. So she is free floated now.

Even tempature will effect it , my PSL, shoot it real slow, it shoots good, start rattling off shots, barrel heats up and it string shots vertically. After a cool.down, back to normal.  Ambient temp and humidity can all add in to the effects, temp can effect not only the rifle, but the ammo.  Hot, temp wise ammo will shoot slightly different than say frozen cold amoo.

[Dannyboy53]

Greasemonkey it is amazing! There is a truckload of variables, internal and external that affect our shots. Plus I have a pair of Model 1953 eyeballs to throw in the mix!

[Greasemonkey]

Even long range shots, those fellas that reach out, say a mile, they even have to deal not only wind, tempature changes up or down drafts, but as I understand, the actual rotation of the planet can come into play. The coriolis effect can alter the bullets trajectory slightly over distance, even the twist of the rifling, the direction has an effect at extreme distance. Factors such as hot spots cold spots, its all an interesting science.

[Dannyboy53]

I was reading about some new fancy dan scopes that companies are coming out with and ran across this one a day or so ago, a cool 17 grand! I read the military is experimenting with something along this line. Seems like this would be too fragile for field use!

http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/01/17000-linux-powered-rifle-brings-auto-aim-to-the-real-world/

It's all amazing, I'm happy just keeping the sun out of my eyes and getting focused on the front sight!

[Justin Hell]

It would be interesting to find out whether blade vs. spike is the factor on your groups being different from one gun to the other.  Perhaps aerodynamics are affected at the muzzle with the different shapes coming into play so shortly after leaving the barrel.

There also is the possibility of weight,  is there a significant difference between the blade and spike?  I don't have a Chinese blade to compare, but if barrel harmonics are affected by whether its deployed or not, any weight difference could also be a factor. 

Wouldn't it be funny if the Chinese were impressed by the accuracy of the 1949 Russians and came to the conclusion that the spike was better than the blade, and readopted it?

It might also be interesting to see what happens when a spike is on upside down. 

[routeus1]

From the , Instructions for Use and Maintenance, 7.62mm Simonov Self-loading Carbine (SKS) Military Press, Ministry of Defense of the USSR, Moscow 1963
(translated by Major J.F. Gebhardt, U.S. Army, Ret)
Page 42, Chapter VIII 79.
"Confirmation of a carbine's zero and bringing it to normal zero are accomplished by firing normal ball ammunition with steel core. all the rounds should be from the same lot.
The range of fire is 100 meters, with the sight set on 3.
The position for fire is prone with a rest. The carbine's bayonet should be in the combat position."

The stance of the USSR was that if it had a bayonet it was zeroed with it, affixed/deployed/combat position.

From the translated manual regarding M91/30, M38, M44. Page 50, Chapter 5 101.
"Confirmation of the zero of Model 1944 is conducted with the bayonet in the combat position [deployed]." Translated by Major J.F. Gebhardt, USA Ret.

http://rmt.enterprisedp.com/#anchor1212323

[Lmbass14]

That was interesting.  The blade in the combat position.

I wonder if the blade was completely removed from the same firearm, what would the groups look like.

[jd?]

I believe that most rifle types have what could be called their "average accuracy".  Of course we rifle owners want to find that magic bullet (literally), that will improve things, or some way to tweak things around that will improve our own rifle's average accuracy. 

There are so many variables to consider, that it can drive you nuts;  and on top of everything, a tweak that improves your accuracy might destroy mine.   I think that bayos are one of those tweaks.  There is most assuredly going to be a difference in barrel harmonics when considering "out vs folded" position, and knowing how mysterious barrel harmonics can be, it wouldn't surprise me if some rifles shoot better with open position, and other that don't. 

The fun of this whole rifle shooting thing for me is to find the easy ways to improve my rifles "average accuracy", and then post target pics that will make you jealous.   jd

[Lmbass14]

I believe that most rifle types have what could be called their "average accuracy".  Of course we rifle owners want to find that magic bullet (literally), that will improve things, or some way to tweak things around that will improve our own rifle's average accuracy. 

There are so many variables to consider, that it can drive you nuts;  and on top of everything, a tweak that improves your accuracy might destroy mine.   I think that bayos are one of those tweaks.  There is most assuredly going to be a difference in barrel harmonics when considering "out vs folded" position, and knowing how mysterious barrel harmonics can be, it wouldn't surprise me if some rifles shoot better with open position, and other that don't. 

The fun of this whole rifle shooting thing for me is to find the easy ways to improve my rifles "average accuracy", and then post target pics that will make you jealous.   jd

And no fair punching holes in the paper with a ball point pen either.

[Greasemonkey]

Now makes one wonder, say you go through all the trouble of accurizing with bayonet extended. Using black box Wolf, you get it down to 1 1/2 - 2 inch. All the sudden Wolf does something differrnt , new powder formula, different primer,  even another lot number comes.along. or heaven forbid you get a case of Bear ammo, Golden Tiger, WPA, or Red Star Romy. Your back at square one, the 3-4 inch pattern so you start all over.  Blowing through a quarter to half a case to tweak it.

I went through this on a Mak 90 back then, I got her down to a loose 1 1/2  inch group, then bought a new case of ammo, same name different lot, no.clue on the differences, but it didn't shoot like the last case. 

You wanna see what a rifle will really do, work your own load up and roll your own and don't count on commie ammo consistency, cause there is none. You will.have to remove the ammo variable to.control the rifle variable.

[Lmbass14]

Now makes one wonder, say you go through all the trouble of accurizing with bayonet extended. Using black box Wolf, you get it down to 1 1/2 - 2 inch. All the sudden Wolf does something differrnt , new powder formula, different primer,  even another lot number comes.along. or heaven forbid you get a case of Bear ammo, Golden Tiger, WPA, or Red Star Romy. Your back at square one, the 3-4 inch pattern so you start all over.  Blowing through a quarter to half a case to tweak it.

I went through this on a Mak 90 back then, I got her down to a loose 1 1/2  inch group, then bought a new case of ammo, same name different lot, no.clue on the differences, but it didn't shoot like the last case. 

You wanna see what a rifle will really do, work your own load up and roll your own and don't count on commie ammo consistency, cause there is none. You will.have to remove the ammo variable to.control the rifle variable.

I agree.  These milsurps are designed to be tac drivers.  They were designed to get close enough and call it good.  If you want tac drivers, like GM said, either roll your own, or buy match grade ammo and use different firearms.  I'm talking past 300-400 yards.