Q: Are Chinese Type 56 SKSs Classified as C&R?

[running-man]

Disclaimer: SKS-files.com is not composed of legal experts, we do our absolute best to make sure that what we post here is accurate, thorough, and factually based.  Still, it is the epitome of foolishness to listen to “a guy on the internet” as your sole basis for legal advice.  If you have specific questions about this subject, you should consult appropriate legal council who specialize in firearms law or contact the ATF directly to obtain a formal determination about your particular firearm.

A: The Chinese Type 56 SKS is a firearm just like any other.  It follows the exact same rules as any other firearm when determining curios and relics (C&R) status.

The law (27 CFR §478.11) defines a C&R like this

Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Please note that in all cases above, (a), (b), and (c), the firearm must be in original condition to be considered a C&R firearm.
In the definition above, a firearm can meet case (b) and (c) only by explicit approval from the ATF in adding that firearm to the official C&R list.  Any firearm on the official C&R list is automatically a C&R regardless of age.  Russian, Romanian, Albanian, and Yugoslavian SKS carbines are all on this list, while the Chinese Type 56 is not.  This has led to great amounts of confusion with assertations that since Chinese Type 56 SKSs are not on the list, they are not eligible to be classified as C&R weapons.  This is 100% untrue!  Chinese Type 56 SKSs still may qualify for C&R status under part (a) of the C&R definition shown above. 

The question now becomes, how does one date a Chinese Type 56 SKS?  Unfortunately, the answer to this seemingly simple question is extremely difficult to answer.  As of 2014, China’s communist government has released no official data on the manufacture of these weapons.  Many collectors have queried ATF about what data would be considered adequate ‘proof’ that any particular Chinese Type 56 SKS is 50+ years old, but the responses are always somewhat vague and cryptic. 

Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old.  The start time for this determination is the day the firearm is manufactured, not the day it is shipped from the factory. 

With respect to SKS firearms specifically, no official manufacturing serial number data has been released by the Chinese government, as far as FTB [the ATF Firearms Technology Branch] is aware.  However, through unclassified intelligence information and other sources, it is known that production started in 1956 within China.  Known SKS serial number samples indicate that most, but not all, have a two part sequential numeric designator making up the complete serial number.   The first one or two digits signify the year of production and the remaining digits indicate the number of rifles produced.

In 1957, the year designator was “1”, so a serial number 1-000756 could have been the 756th SKS manufactured in 1957.  A “2” designates 1958 and so on; however, this numbering system only pertained to military production rifles.  Export versions of SKS rifles intended for non-military sales have been observed with various sequential numbering systems.  In conclusion, FTB does not have information indicating a consistent pattern to the serial numbering system that the Chinese used in SKS production.

From this AFT letter (page 1, page 2) we can determine certain things.

The first is that it is clear that the ATF likely does not know as much about Chinese Type 56 rifles as does the collecting community.  This is evident in their 1-000756 example from “1957”.  To date there are no known examples of early production (i.e. Jianshe factory /26\) Type 56 SKS carbines with a 1 million S/N prefix that conform to the known early Type 56 features.  The current dating progression of /26\ rifles can be seen in the Q: When was my Chinese Type 56 SKS made? thread.

Second, ATF most certainly leaves us an open door to determining C&R status with their examples, but they are purposefully ambiguous with their nomenclature.  What does “military production rifles” mean?  At SKS-files, it is our opinion that all triangle enclosed factory marks were put on rifles intended for use by the PLA.  Unfortunately, it is abundantly clear that a triangle stamped rifle with an ‘odd’ S/N that clearly doesn’t have “early” features simply cannot be dated with the accuracy needed to determined whether it is a 50+ year old C&R or not.  To avoid this problem entirely, we are going to limit this discussion to factory /26\ rifles only, as they have the most consistent serial number patterns. 

In addition to only looking at /26\ rifles as being possibly C&R eligible, we must also make the caveat that the rifle must have all the necessary features that were common during the year of manufacture.  Here’s an example of an “outlier” /26\ rifle that has features that do not conform to the “standard”.




What do we see right off the bat?  A /26\ mark with a 1,501,085 S/N.  It must be a 1957 produced rifle.  That manufacture date would qualify it as a C&R...right?!

Unfortunately, this is not the case all around.  Look more closely at the two photos.  There are the three ‘5 6 Type’ (五六式) Chinese ideograms stamped on the rifle and the /26\ mark is to the left of the S/N.  These did not show up until ~1961.  The rifle has an obviously short barrel lug and a spike bayonet that seats properly in the U shaped cutout in the ferrule.  These features did not show up until ~1965 at the very earliest!  It is impossible to defend an assertation that this rifle is a 50+ year old C&R.  We made a poor assumption that the ATF may not have intended us to make.  They stated that “The first one or two digits signify the year of production and the remaining digits indicate the number of rifles produced.“  They did not state that the serial numbers for all years contained the same number of digits.  We are assuming that 1,509,085 is a year “1” rifle when in reality it is a year “15” rifle as is clearly indicated by the features described above!

Ok, we need to be careful with not assuming that the year designator is always the multiple millions position with the 1 million series guns, but is instead simply the first two digits.   How can we do this without getting into trouble and making assumptions that could lead to incorrectly dating a rifle?  Here are my fairly conservative judging criteria:

• Type 56 SKS carbines that sport any other factory stamp that is not a /26\ are likely not C&R at this point in time.  Note that this still leaves open the possibility that non-marked receivers (Ghost guns) are still fully eligible.
• Let’s also use the barrel lug as a defining feature because we know these changed in ~1965 as well.  Short lugs and pinned barrels are likely not C&Rs. (as of 2014)

With these two simple criteria, we have severely restricted our pool of eligible guns, but it should now be fairly easy to determine the C&R eligibility of what is left.  We know that in 2014, a 50+ year old C&R Chinese Type 56 SKS would have to be built in or before 1964, so what candidates de we have that fit this bill?

• Soviet-Sino: These are type 56 SKSs that have 4 digit serial numbers from 0001 to ~2000.  Undoubtedly these are the earliest Type 56 rifles made, using obviously Russian Tula fabricated receivers.  These carbines must have a Tula star to the right of the numbers to be considered a Soviet-Sino.  These guns have bottom swivels on originally stocked specimens.
  
  
  
• Ghost guns: Type 56 SKSs that have serial numbers from ~2000 up to ~213,600.  These guns have no factory stamps anywhere on the receiver.  They should have long barrel lugs, and blade bayonet “V” style cuts in the ferrule.  These guns have bottom swivels on originally stocked specimens.
  
  
  
• Six Digit, 2 million, and 3 million series /26\ guns:  These are the easiest ones to spot.  The /26\ mark on these will always be to the right of the S/N.  They should have long barrel lugs, and blade bayonet “V” style cuts in the ferrule.  For the most part, these guns have bottom swivels on originally stocked specimens, but the 3 million series was the transition point from bottom to side swivels and later numbered specimens may sport side swivels.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Letter prefix /26\ guns:  Somewhat harder to identify than the numbers only guns, these Type 56 carbines sport a single Roman or Old English style letter with a 4 or 5 digit number following it.  As with the six digit, 2 million, and 3 million specimens, the /26\ mark will always be to the right of the S/N on these.  They should have long barrel lugs, and blade bayonet “V” style cuts in the ferrule.  These guns will always sport side swivel mounts on originally stocked specimens.
  
  
  
• 6 million, 7 million, and 8 million /26\ guns:  These carbines will all contain the ‘5 6 Type’ (五六式) Chinese ideograms between the /26\ arsenal mark and the S/N.  The /26\ mark will always be to the left of the ideograms and S/N on these series of rifles.  These rifle all have long barrel lugs and blade bayonets.  Originally stocked specimens will sport side swivel mounts just like the letter series guns.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

There is speculation that the 9 million S/N /26\ marked Type 56 SKS carbines should be included into this mix as the 9 million S/N correlates to the 1964 year of production, but as this is the hairy edge of the 50 year C&R classification (as of 2014) and the dating system is not 100% verified, it is probably best not to push your luck with these guns.

-RM

Photos from various auction sites and internet postings are used under 17 U.S. Code § 107, fair use, not for profit educational purposes.  If any of the photos in this post are yours and you explicitly do not want them shown, please contact me.

[Power Surge]

Who exactly decides whether or not to SELL a Type 56 as a C&R? I ask this because Allan's Armory recently sold about six /26\ guns that were not early models and had them all listed as C&R.

[running-man]

Technically, the buyer and seller are both supposed to agree that the firearm is C&R for a Type 03 C&R FFL to be used by the buyer.  It's one of those things that if one or the other don't agree, the transaction simply won't happen.  I've seen many sellers who aren't too knowledgable about the C&R laws simply decide not to sell directly to 03 FFL holders & to treat them like any other Joe Schmoe who has to go through a 01. (kind of like when you see an obviously blanket "No sales to CA" on gunboards....the item may or may not be illegal there, but they simply don't want to deal with the laws)

Another ding on the 03 FFL holder is the fact that their license cannot be verified using the the license number via the web like 01's can be.  This makes the 01's uncomfortable because they are unable to verify the license is truly valid like they are used to with 01's. 

The final thing I suspect, is that 01 FFLs have gotten a bit lazy in their determinations.  ATF has a list of firearms on a C&R list, but they have a big disclaimer that says: It is not necessary for [such] firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list.  I think sometimes when a seller looks on the list and doesn't see the particular firearm, they automatically assume it's not a C&R.

All this adds up to many sellers not selling C&R guns as C&Rs, even though they most certainly are.  You can try and educate them, but most dealers I've dealt with don't take kindly to being taught by a lowly customer. 

Edit: So in rereading your question it appears I totally whiffed the answer, sorry about that.  You're asking what about if the seller mistakenly says that a gun is C&R even though it's not one.  In that case, it's up to the buyer to determine whether the firearm is truly a C&R for the transaction to be legal on their 03 FFL.  Again, I've seen many instances where the buyer simply doesn't know the law and assumes that since the seller is advertising it as a C&R, then it must be so.  Making determinations of Russian, Albanian, Romanina, and Yugoslavian SKSs are cake because they are all on the ATF C&R list.  The Chinese take more effort and cause much more confusion as there is lots of bad and downright wrong info out there on the web.  If the particular gun is not one of the ones I've shown in examples above, I'd be pretty cautious.  The one instance where I would be less concerned is where you're buying from a large distributor (AIM, RT, Century etc.) and buying the 'top rifle off the stack', sight unseen.  In that case, it's 100% up to the distributor to verify that you're getting a C&R rifle.  Now what happens if they send you a verifiable non-C&R firearm?  Good question! 

[Crazyone]

where can I get a current list of C&R eligible--the only one I saw was on BATF--50 some pages with 3 or 4 updates--

[Greasemonkey]

Now I have a question, what was explained to me is a Chinese stamped Norinco is not C&R eligible, while a recent Chinese import is. The difference between the two being the import stamping and time frame which they were brought in. The Norinco stamped weapons came around the time Bush and Clinton signed those bills banning Chinese imports which technically was never lifted, the ban has stayed in effect, in-defiantly. Even though the AWB in 2001 or 2002 was let go. While the recent imports are eligible because not because of age, but are technically deemed as "war material" from Albania or were ever they called home while stored.

And another myth? I've heard, Norinco import stamped SKSs will never obtain C&R status simply because of the shear numbers imported in the past years. They are by no means deemed a rare obscure weapon, has little if any historical or bazaar value, some were scrubbed and rebuilt, some were remade commercial variants, and the ATF has no bonafied dating proof.. The current Chinese have the whole "war material" thing working for them that makes them truly eligible for C&R.

So I always figured if it is not stamped Norinco it's C&R 03, if it is stamped Norinco, it must go through a FFL01.

Too much political BS, by god, either it is or it ain't, it shouldn't be this difficult, kinda like being half pregnant. 

Am I way off in left field, totally incorrect, I know the correct method is to call the ATF.   Or just tell me to shut my mouth, go away 

[running-man]

Ronald: The official ATF list is likely the one you've seen, 1 main list and 5 updates: https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/index.html

These are the 'special' guns that have been deemed curios by museum officials. These ones on the list are often 50 years old, but they need not be (for example a CZ-82 pistol is not)

Everything else is covered under the 50 years or older / original configuration rule I talked about in the OP.  You'll never get a full list of every gun that is C&R eligible I'm afraid, you just have to use good judgement. 

[running-man]

GM: the only reason a Norinco import migh not qualify for C&R status is because of the uncertainty that exists when they were made.  I think we made a darn strong case for our SKS dating system in the When was my Chinese Type 56 SKS made? thread, and that coupled with the recent Sino-Banian imports surely opens the door to being able to continually assess the /26\ guns each year using the 50 year / original configuration rule.

The recent Sino-Banian imports were eligible only because they are C&R. Per the way the law currently reads, importation of complete non-C&R military surplus weapons (not parts mind you, parts are a whole other can of worms) is automatically denied.  This is the reason you don't see people getting a batch of non-C&R Chinese guns imported into Canada, holding them there 5 years, and then getting them into the US.  The 5 year proscribed country rule doesn't change anything about the weapons themselves. Chinese guns don't magically become Albanian guns.  Five years simply checks the box for the government to approve the import.

I'd never heard the rumor about norinco imported SKSs being too numerous to be C&R.  They may never become a 'curio' but 'relics' are determined by age and age alone. If you can date it and its in original condition, it becomes a relic by definition (just like the Sino-Banians). Technically, since we have a nice 1994 hard break in virtually every Chinese sks in the US, by 2044 *all* Chinese SKSs except for rifles modified from their original as-built configuration, will become C&Rs. Scrubbed guns will be C&R after this date for certain as will newly built commercial variants such as a Clayco M8.  Commercial guns cut down from a stock type 56 like a Briklee hunter or any paratrooper will never attain C&R status.

So I always figured if it is not stamped Norinco it's C&R 03, if it is stamped Norinco, it must go through a FFL01.

I think you are out in left field in this one. Import stamps vary wildly between the 70 or so ones that I've seen. Not all say norinco on them.  I don't think this is a food way to determine the C&R status of a Chinese SKS at all. It's much better to attempt to date it and use the info in the 'When was my Chinese SKS made?' thread to apply the 50 years or older / original configuration rule.

You're right though, when in doubt, the best course of action is to get a determination from the ATF technology branch. 

[Greasemonkey]

I'd never heard the rumor about norinco imported SKSs being too numerous to be C&R.  They may never become a 'curio' but 'relics' are determined by age and age alone. If you can date it and its in original condition, it becomes a relic by definition (just like the Sino-Banians). Technically, since we have a nice 1994 hard break in virtually every Chinese sks in the US, by 2044 *all* Chinese SKSs except for rifles modified from their original as-built configuration, will become C&Rs. Scrubbed guns will be C&R after this date for certain as will newly built commercial variants such as a Clayco M8.  Commercial guns cut down from a stock type 56 like a Briklee hunter or any paratrooper will never attain C&R status.

RM, I was not trying to doubt anything, it's just stuff over years I've stumbled across, read and wondered about, as everyone has had a theory to this or that based on pieces of info from somewhere. And at some point these theorys would make there way here. As for the quantities of Chinese weapons imported I found this:

China accounted for forty-two percent of all rifles imported into the U.S. civilian market between 1987 and 1994, the year in which President Clinton finally blocked the Chinese gun dumping. This flood of Chinese weapons was so great that it strongly boosted the overall import of guns to the U.S. Chinese rifles and handguns accounted for 15 percent of all firearms imported for the civilian market in six of the eight years between 1987 and 1994. The import of Chinese guns was effectively stopped in 1994 when President Clinton imposed a ban as a condition of renewing China's most favored nation status.

It was in with the justification for the Chinese SKS being too prolific to be classified as C&R.

[running-man]

I've updated this post to 'officially' include the 6 million, 7 million, and 8 million /26\ guns.  There are so many 7 million guns coming in from the last batch of IO imports that I think there is no question they are C&R eligible.  The 9 million /26\ guns are very likely to be C&R in my opinion, but the dating method we use is different from everyone else on the net by a year so it's better to be safe than sorry for now.

[Adam7]

Sooo, since it's now 2015 can we include the 9 mil guns?  Or is it still too much 'living in the edge'..

[brentb636]

Personally , if a seller advertised a 9 million gun now, as C&R eligible, and I wanted it, I'd take that chance.  What I wouldn't do is argue with anyone about that particular subject, since MY proof that it is 50 years old is somewhat circumstantial. 

Brent

[running-man]

Yes,  As of Jan 1, 2015 the 9 mil /26\ guns should be safely C&R by either the 1956 + XX method (1965 built), or by our XXth year of production method (9th year of SKS production was 1964).

The 10 mils are now the iffy ones.  This will increment every year until we reach the 14 mil/26\ guns and then, theoretically the 1.5 mil /26\ guns would be next.  That will be another hard sell though.

In a couple years, papered VN bringbacks such as the M21s, NK, EG, and NVA with early capture dates will be fully eligible under the 50 year rule.  By 2023, all VN bringbacks should be  'officially' C&R as the latest possible capture dates will provide a hard floor for determining the age of those rifles. 

[running-man]

Yay, fixed the broken images on the first out of ~20 FAQ posts. 

I seriously need to update this post anyhow, it's 2014 old.  12 mils should be C&R these days...