Author Topic: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value  (Read 531 times)

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Offline summum

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How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« on: August 01, 2024, 08:23:15 AM »
Good day Everyone,

I found on the website CGN forum somewhat of a chart to rate Russian SKS thus I was wondering if there is a more details/specific chart to rate Russian SKS for collectability. :o Please note that I have added a few levels at the end of the chart which I thing is fair.

To the collectors out there. Thank you for your replies to this post.  thankyou1 thumb1

GRADE / COLLECTIBLES OF RUSSIAN SKS in order of value:
**Made in 1949 in any condition**. It’s the most sought after, extremely rare and valuable because it’s the first year of production and also has unique features that are not found in other SKS today.
1.   Un-issued in mint condition. Definition is from the factory to storage, never been issued to the troops.
2.   Non-refurb and matching in excellent condition.
3.   Refurb and matching in very good condition.
4.   Refurb and forced matching in very good condition.
5.   Non-Refurb and Non-matching in very good condition.
6.   Refurb and Non-matching in very good condition.

Have a great day everyone  :)

Offline running-man

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2024, 11:21:07 AM »
Many have tried to formulate all different kinds lists of SKS45s from desirability to rarity to $$ value.  When you boil it down however, all lists are subjective to the biases of the list-maker. 

From my point of view, the terminology in the CGN list is extremely problematic.  How anyone can determine an 'unissued' or 'non-refurb' carbine is beyond me.  I take great pains to never label any SKS 'unissued', 'non-refurbished', or 'unfired'.  Those are three things that simply cannot be known with any degree of certainty based on the information available today. 

Here is the key I used for the gunbroker tracking threads back when I used to do them.  Even this terminology is subject to individual interpretation:

Arsenal Condition:
As-Issued: All matching guns with original stocks and no hint of refurbishment.  No [/], <>, or other refurbishment marks.  Current condition may be varying, but gun must be all matching.  This is basically the configuration the gun would have been in when it was issued to the military the first time.  Perhaps it was never given out to troops to use in the field and simply sat unused until it was decommissioned.  Perhaps it was only lightly used and was still in great shape, escaping the need for major refurbishment when the time came.  There is considerable debate in the collecting community as to what constitutes an "As-Issued" gun.  Some will say that an import stamp that is required by US law invalidates the 'As-Issued' designator and this category should instead be 'unrefurbished' or 'non-refurbished'.  This is nit picking in my opinion.  No the import stamp was not there during issue, but the addition of a stamp that is required by law does not fundamentally change the arsenal condition of the gun.  I will say however, that non/unrefurbished is a 100% misnomer as it is impossible to prove.  To think that we as a collecting community are good enough to know the provenance of any particular gun is ridiculous hubris when there is so much we don't know about the Russian refurbishment process.  We simply don't know the refurbishment status of many of these firearms and to pretend that we do is not something I want this site to promote.
Light Refurbished: Guns with a light refurbishment.  It could be a single lined out S/N magazine on an otherwise as-issued gun, a simple replacement XX'd stock, or an otherwise all matching gun with an unfortunate refurb mark on the receiver cover.  Current condition may be varying but note that light refurbished guns often match but do not have to be all matching.
Heavy Refurbished: These are the BBQ refurbs.  Guns with black paint on a receiver cover, bolt, bolt carrier or receiver.  Collectors tend to turn their noses up at these ones, thus they tend to be priced less than other guns.  Current condition may be varying but note that BBQ Refurbs don't have to be all matching.
Bubba: Plastic anything, Tech sights, swapped out handguards, anything drilled and tapped, duracoated/non arsenal painted anything, banana mag w/o the original shown, anything Chinese on the gun, chopped "Paratrooper" modifications, FSB modifications, etc.  It doesn't matter if the gun can be put back close to 'original' condition easily, if it's a bubba gun when it sells, it's a bubba gun.
Uncertain: This is the designator I give when the auction is horsetrashy (not a word) enough for me to not want to guess at condition.  Photos were blurry, taken from 1000 miles away, or were of parts of the gun that nobody cares about (like 10 shots of the bayonet...hint hint).  Could be a gem or a lump of coal.  Anyone who bought it w/o seeing better photos took a gamble.

Current Condition:
Perfect: In New condition in every aspect.  (Many collectors & dealers use "As New" to describe this condition).  Unfired since import.  Something in this category likely has the box with all accessories and maybe even the original receipt with it. 
Excellent: New condition, used but little, no noticeable marring of wood or metal, bluing perfect, (except at muzzle or sharp edges).  Fired very little if at all.  Again, these guns typically have the original packaging and all components.
Very Good: In perfect working condition, no appreciable wear on working surfaces, no corrosion or pitting, only minor surface dents or scratches even though the gun has certainly been fired.  May or may not have the box and all accessories. 
Good: In safe working condition, minor wear on working surfaces, no broken parts, no corrosion or pitting that will interfere with proper functioning.  Fired often, likely doesn't have the box, manual or any accessories. 
Fair: In safe working condition but well worn, perhaps requiring replacement of minor parts or adjustments which should be indicated in advertisement, no active rust, but may have corrosion pits which do not render article unsafe or inoperable.  Heavily fired to the point where wear may begin to be an issue.  No box or original accessories. 
Poor: Extensive repair needed; metal deeply pitted with active rust; may have principal lettering, numerals and design obliterated, wood badly scratched, bruised, cracked, or even broken; could be mechanically inoperative; generally undesirable.  Fired to the point of needing barrel replacement.  These type of guns should be checked by a competent gunsmith before usage.
Uncertain: This is the designator I give when the auction is horsetrashy (not a word) enough for me to not want to guess at condition.  Photos were blurry, taken from 1000 miles away, or were of parts of the gun that nobody cares about (like 10 shots of the bayonet...hint hint).  Could be a gem or a lump of coal.  Anyone who bought it w/o seeing better photos took a gamble.
      

Offline summum

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2024, 04:27:29 PM »
Many have tried to formulate all different kinds lists of SKS45s from desirability to rarity to $$ value.  When you boil it down however, all lists are subjective to the biases of the list-maker. 

From my point of view, the terminology in the CGN list is extremely problematic.  How anyone can determine an 'unissued' or 'non-refurb' carbine is beyond me.  I take great pains to never label any SKS 'unissued', 'non-refurbished', or 'unfired'.  Those are three things that simply cannot be known with any degree of certainty based on the information available today. 

Here is the key I used for the gunbroker tracking threads back when I used to do them.  Even this terminology is subject to individual interpretation:

running-man I sincerely appreciate your thoughts as per the Arsenal Condition and Current Condition from your 2015 post with picture chart. thumb1

I would like to know your thoughts on an SKS that I have which is a letter series И (1957) that all numbers are matching on the rifle thus the stock was Bubba sended and varnished with a brown color.  I have taken step to get an original Arctic Birch stock that matches the finger groove forehand color then again it has a different SN on the stock. What would you say about the collectability, if is is I would say very good condition?

The same I would ask with an SKS which we have a lot in Canada that is in very good condition thus the magazine is not matching. Information that I got was that some Canadian importers that required by law to reduce the capacity of magazine from 10 rounds to 5 rounds would not pay any importance to match the magazine with the appropriates SKS . What would you consider the collectability of these SKS?

Thank you in advance for thoughts on the matter.

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2024, 04:28:56 PM »
What... no "Museum Grade" ..  :)
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

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Offline running-man

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2024, 04:52:04 PM »
What... no "Museum Grade" ..  :)

ahh yes, museum grade, and the even better "Smithsonian" Condition as coined by our former member Gator Monroe.  wacko1

Laugh, GM, those were the days!
      

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2024, 05:37:05 PM »
running-man I sincerely appreciate your thoughts as per the Arsenal Condition and Current Condition from your 2015 post with picture chart. thumb1

I would like to know your thoughts on an SKS that I have which is a letter series И (1957) that all numbers are matching on the rifle thus the stock was Bubba sended and varnished with a brown color.  I have taken step to get an original Arctic Birch stock that matches the finger groove forehand color then again it has a different SN on the stock. What would you say about the collectability, if is is I would say very good condition?

The same I would ask with an SKS which we have a lot in Canada that is in very good condition thus the magazine is not matching. Information that I got was that some Canadian importers that required by law to reduce the capacity of magazine from 10 rounds to 5 rounds would not pay any importance to match the magazine with the appropriates SKS . What would you consider the collectability of these SKS?

Thank you in advance for thoughts on the matter.

No worries at all.  This is always a bit of a raw topic for many experienced (some of the snobbish SKS guys would say "real") collectors (and the newbies too!).  They want what they have to be special, valuable, or desirable and when anyone in the community (or the community as a whole) somewhat pooh-poohs their carbine they can get *really* salty. 


I'll offer my opinion, which if you add $3 will get you a coffee at Tim Hortons:

For the gun you describe first it can either be a VG condition bubba'd gun with a sanded and refinished but number matching stock (a real travesty for certain, but everyone here has seen their fair share of nice collectable carbines that are irreparably harmed by bubba), or it can be a non-matching gun in VG condition.  It will never again be an as-issued, VG condition carbine.  Of the two, I'd say the non-matching stock is the more valuable/more desirable of the two, but the difference between the two is probably negligible and only due to the fact that many purist collectors are quite turned off by anything bubba.  An all-matching, untouched by bubba carbine in similar condition will always be more valuable/more desirable. 

Now is this gun horsetrash?  Obviously not.  Many collectors keep such a gun as a shooter, or as a collection 'hole filler' to be replaced when a carbine that is in better 'arsenal condition' & better or equal 'current condition' shows up for an attractive enough price.  Other collectors (I'm one of them, GM is as well...up to a point) don't put near as much emphasis on arsenal condition and collect guns they enjoy irregardless of perceived price or 'collectability'.  Would I like to have an excellent condition as-issued '53 Izhevsk? Heck yeah!  But for the price and effort it typically takes to buy that gun, I could much more easily obtain one to several lesser carbines that 1) would have more "soul" than that '53 Izhevsk safe queen, 2) I would not be afraid to take out to shoot and enjoy, 3) I would not be so attached to it not to sell, barter, or trade up to obtain something else sometime down the road if I wanted to.  (All subjective reasons on my part, and other collectors will most certainly have their own reasons to agree or disagree.)

As for the mismatched magazines, I would say that it's unfortunate just like we have to deal with unfortunate billboard style import stamps in the states.  The way the pinning process is done can arguably affect the collectability of a carbine with some collectors not even showing any interest in frankenpinned or other outwardly visibly pinned magazines (though a good many Canadian collectors I've talked to really don't care one way or another, as long as the carbine is in good condition).  The mismatching magazine certainly dings the collectability of any given carbine and isn't given such an easy pass though.  Mismatched guns are mismatched; they can be 'force' matched by bubba (which in my book lowers the value even more), but in the end like in the first example you cite they will never be as-issued carbines and will always take a ding in the more valuable/more desirable category when compared to an equal gun that is all matching.
      

Offline summum

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2024, 06:05:01 PM »
No worries at all.  This is always a bit of a raw topic for many experienced (some of the snobbish SKS guys would say "real") collectors (and the newbies too!).  They want what they have to be special, valuable, or desirable and when anyone in the community (or the community as a whole) somewhat pooh-poohs their carbine they can get *really* salty. 


I'll offer my opinion, which if you add $3 will get you a coffee at Tim Hortons  :))

For the gun you describe first it can either be a VG condition bubba'd gun with a sanded and refinished but number matching stock (a real travesty for certain, but everyone here has seen their fair share of nice collectable carbines that are irreparably harmed by bubba), or it can be a non-matching gun in VG condition.  It will never again be an as-issued, VG condition carbine.  Of the two, I'd say the non-matching stock is the more valuable/more desirable of the two, but the difference between the two is probably negligible and only due to the fact that many purist collectors are quite turned off by anything bubba.  An all-matching, untouched by bubba carbine in similar condition will always be more valuable/more desirable. 

Now is this gun horsetrash?  Obviously not.  Many collectors keep such a gun as a shooter, or as a collection 'hole filler' to be replaced when a carbine that is in better 'arsenal condition' & better or equal 'current condition' shows up for an attractive enough price.  Other collectors (I'm one of them, GM is as well...up to a point) don't put near as much emphasis on arsenal condition and collect guns they enjoy irregardless of perceived price or 'collectability'.  Would I like to have an excellent condition as-issued '53 Izhevsk? Heck yeah!  But for the price and effort it typically takes to buy that gun, I could much more easily obtain one to several lesser carbines that 1) would have more "soul" than that '53 Izhevsk safe queen, 2) I would not be afraid to take out to shoot and enjoy, 3) I would not be so attached to it not to sell, barter, or trade up to obtain something else sometime down the road if I wanted to.  (All subjective reasons on my part, and other collectors will most certainly have their own reasons to agree or disagree.)

for the first the stock was sanded to a degree that no markings are showing on either side of the butt stock thus I can appreciate your point of view on the issue that I face. thankyou1

I do have Izhevsk 1953 with the magazine not matching and forced matched stock. :o cry1

Have a great evening Mr  :)

Offline Greatguns

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2024, 09:47:38 PM »
GM and RM, you guys do realize that the Smithsonian IS a museum right??? Of course, Gator Monroe simply didn't understand there was no difference. :P :) 8)
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2024, 10:01:28 PM »


Now is this gun horsetrash?  Obviously not.  Many collectors keep such a gun as a shooter, or as a collection 'hole filler' to be replaced when a carbine that is in better 'arsenal condition' & better or equal 'current condition' shows up for an attractive enough price.  Other collectors (I'm one of them, GM is as well...up to a point) don't put near as much emphasis on arsenal condition and collect guns they enjoy irregardless of perceived price or 'collectability'.  Would I like to have an excellent condition as-issued '53 Izhevsk? Heck yeah!  But for the price and effort it typically takes to buy that gun, I could much more easily obtain one to several lesser carbines that 1) would have more "soul" than that '53 Izhevsk safe queen, 2) I would not be afraid to take out to shoot and enjoy, 3) I would not be so attached to it not to sell, barter, or trade up to obtain something else sometime down the road if I wanted to.  (All subjective reasons on my part, and other collectors will most certainly have their own reasons to agree or disagree.)


I definitely agree here..   I'm that collector like RM says.. a '53 Izhevsk safe queen, would I own, yes.. but at the pricing.. I'll save a little more and hedge my bets on a papered bring back Luger, which I have 4 of. There's soul in that Luger...bad as it is to say, a true unquestionable history. Not a storage room special.  Am I a little crass, subjective.... possibly, but it's something that's to each their own, that makes collecting individualized. Me, I look for something rode hard and put up wet, all loose and scratched, even blood etched and shrapnel damaged, use to me equals soul, seen a battle or many battles, it's history in your hands. You want it to talk and tell, but there's also the side you don't want to hear or know.  Matching numbers is another, yes it's nice, but not necessary for me. As for shootability, again I've shot my papered bring backs, once for function..... but I also usually purchase a mismatchy beater for regular use, or if by chance someone wants to try it.

On the flip side, I think so, so much emphasis is put on price, the first words out of anyone's fingers on a forum is... is it rare and whats it worth, sometimes not in that order.... In the grand scheme of things, it's worth exactly what your willing to pay, because what I'd pay may be totally different. I have over paid and I've under paid over my 20+ year course of collecting. After a while, it balances and averages out, and if you over pay, eventually the market catches up in due time. Anymore... if it fits my budget, it speaks loud enough, it's coming home.. If I can't do it.. another is always out there somewhere for the price I can or would do. Rarity... is also subjective... compare the number of long barrel Yugoslavians to Izhevsk's, or the number of Romanian's to Chinese, it can be twisted around many ways, and there is no hard firm answer, because production numbers were held close to the chest of many nations. Only limited percentages of total production were imported, and many were lost thru use, abuse, conflicts, contracts with other nations and general military attrition.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline summum

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2024, 10:01:10 AM »
I definitely agree here..   I'm that collector like RM says.. a '53 Izhevsk safe queen, would I own, yes.. but at the pricing.. I'll save a little more and hedge my bets on a papered bring back Luger, which I have 4 of. There's soul in that Luger...bad as it is to say, a true unquestionable history. Not a storage room special.  Am I a little crass, subjective.... possibly, but it's something that's to each their own, that makes collecting individualized. Me, I look for something rode hard and put up wet, all loose and scratched, even blood etched and shrapnel damaged, use to me equals soul, seen a battle or many battles, it's history in your hands. You want it to talk and tell, but there's also the side you don't want to hear or know.  Matching numbers is another, yes it's nice, but not necessary for me. As for shootability, again I've shot my papered bring backs, once for function..... but I also usually purchase a mismatchy beater for regular use, or if by chance someone wants to try it.

On the flip side, I think so, so much emphasis is put on price, the first words out of anyone's fingers on a forum is... is it rare and whats it worth, sometimes not in that order.... In the grand scheme of things, it's worth exactly what your willing to pay, because what I'd pay may be totally different. I have over paid and I've under paid over my 20+ year course of collecting. After a while, it balances and averages out, and if you over pay, eventually the market catches up in due time. Anymore... if it fits my budget, it speaks loud enough, it's coming home.. If I can't do it.. another is always out there somewhere for the price I can or would do. Rarity... is also subjective... compare the number of long barrel Yugoslavians to Izhevsk's, or the number of Romanian's to Chinese, it can be twisted around many ways, and there is no hard firm answer, because production numbers were held close to the chest of many nations. Only limited percentages of total production were imported, and many were lost thru use, abuse, conflicts, contracts with other nations and general military attrition.

Thank you to GM & R-M  thankyou1  thumb1comments which I do sincerely appreciate your comments and take value in them. So I will keep my Izhevsk non matching magazine and enjoy it for what it is in my mind.  :)  dance2

Offline 100Acre

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2024, 12:59:43 PM »
GOING TO LOOK AT A RUSSIAN TODAY FOR $500. I DON’T KNOW ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT IT AT THIS POINT. Ooops sorry for yelling. I must be getting deef … :-[

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Re: How to rate Russian SKS for collectability value
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2024, 10:24:00 AM »
Good luck on the purchase 100acre
My Avatar is a pic of the real "Ghost" SKS in honor of xxxsks(joe). It is a pic of a fully decked out SKS in Capco hunter's kit. This was mine, the only other pic I had ever seen of one was Joe's.