Weird SKS...its a DB (now weirder with pics, and its new owner)

[Stoned_Oli]

Looks like that shelf is cast in for that purpose. At the far left in pic 2...
Kind of like a pre-stamped last ditch style construction. Prototype perhaps?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Right...  looking at the orientation of the disconnector, it does look like its dependent on the cast receiver body itself.  Wow.    Even milled and tempered receivers have a hardened keystock. 

To me....  this is over the moon scary.

[Stoned_Oli]

What is really scary is looking at the tip of the ejector in the 5th pic... I believe it has been shot a few times!
I could picture them moving to stamped construction as an "improvement" over this design, if the aim was to save manufacturing cost.
Odd that such a beast would get exported though...

[Justin Hell]

The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be.  Is this even safe to fire I wonder?

I think we need to get to the bottom of this before you even think about firing this one Justin!!!!

With the bolt, magazine, and trigger in the gun, but receiver cover off, push the bolt forward as far as it will go into battery, then press down on the top of the bolt (this is what the bolt carrier does when it moves forward the last 1/2" or so).  While still pressing down, try to pull the bolt back out of battery.  If it moves more than 5 or 10 thousandths, then you've got a serious problem.

It doesn't move even a smidge.  I looked through the pin hole and saw no bolt poking in the way either. It rests solid when pushed down on the metal directly in front of the interrupter.  I cannot fathom what that 'missing' pin would actually be reinforcing.  The only metal it would contact would be either side of the receiver, the bolt hammering into the metal both above and behind it, seems as if it would be pointless.  Perhaps it is a window more so than a pin hole?  Kind of like the windows on trigger groups? I could see the shadow of the edge of the bolt disappear completely flush with the top of the hole...as far as I can see anyway.

I took a peek at Yoopers and saw that indeed one of the examples of a cast receiver is a DB, but my serial predates it by either two years or 2 million guns...depending on what consensus is regarding these today.

I did also notice there is a T proof mark on the back of the bolt that I hadn't noticed, also...the serial is upside down compared to my other Chinese bolts too.  It seems everywhere I look, I get distracted by one weird thing...only to discover another.

My wife is chiming in in the speculation department, wondering if these were only intended to be training rifles...using the low powered training ammo like we have seen from Europe.  Has any training ammo from China ever surfaced?  It would seem as if leftover parts and/or stuff that isn't up to spec would be fodder for cheap trainers.  Considering nobody has ever nailed down any proof of the Bangladesh/Pakistan connection to previous speculation...and that the Chinese character translates to 'Brigade', while no reference to Type 56 is found on them, maybe they didn't cut the mustard to be official T56's...and were relegated to light duty?  The threat of a cast ANYTHING having a catastrophic failure in the field seems a bit risky.

Also, on considering the lack of the pins on mine vs. the cast example at Yoopers...it is also sporting a threaded barrel whereas this one is pinned...perhaps the pins were there to hold the barrel lug in place rather than relying on the threads potentially stripping under stress in the cast receiver vs. the hardened barrel material.   With this being a pinned barrel, the weakness of threads mushrooming are bypassed.  I don't know how much I trust a pin any more than threads...but, part of the fun is in the speculation until something starts making sense.

In the realm of it being a prototype, perhaps...but I would be more inclined to think it is more of a link in the evolution of how to cheaply and quickly make these, and maybe the progression towards pinned barrels?  All I know is now I have another SKS I don't consider a shooter...at least the pristine Cherry's Yugo is something that I would feel safe firing.

But on that note, as filthy as this thing is the PO must have put an awful lot down the pipe, considering the gas system had obviously never been tampered with since its haphazard installation...but the barrel had been kept clean...the piston looked like the inside of a bong stem.  I got it as clean as I could, but this is gonna require chemical intervention.  However unsafe it may seem, she has taken a pounding since being stateside. 

[running-man]

Scariness aside, this is a really neat gun Justin! 

The hole going through where the square keystock would normally go...is it drilled in such a way that the side of the hole creates the edge where the rear end of the bolt would touch in your photo 2? 

They were definitely experimenting with design improvements with this gun.  I'm liking it more and more, the deeper we delve into it!  I'd be scared as hell to shoot it, but I do like it!

Edit:  Ahh I see you looked through the hole and saw the shadow of the edge of the bolt disappear...I'd agree that it's likely some kind of window.  A pin pressed in that spot just doesn't make any sense...  

[Loose}{Cannon]

Where did you get "brigade" from?   This actually looks like a dif character then the ones we have documented.  Most of the other known characters stanslate to colors.    Can you get a better pic?

[Stoned_Oli]

The plot thickens...it appears as if the hole is supposed to have a pin going through it....right where the keystock would be.  Is this even safe to fire I wonder?

I think we need to get to the bottom of this before you even think about firing this one Justin!!!!

With the bolt, magazine, and trigger in the gun, but receiver cover off, push the bolt forward as far as it will go into battery, then press down on the top of the bolt (this is what the bolt carrier does when it moves forward the last 1/2" or so).  While still pressing down, try to pull the bolt back out of battery.  If it moves more than 5 or 10 thousandths, then you've got a serious problem.

I took a peek at Yoopers and saw that indeed one of the examples of a cast receiver is a DB, but my serial predates it by either two years or 2 million guns...depending on what consensus is regarding these today.

Have a look farther down that page at the 0141 from Ray Pizzino. It has the same cut on the right  side, although there are no pics of the side of the receiver with the wood off to see if the square lug is present or not.

[Justin Hell]

I actually didn't investigate the character at all, my bad....

I was just going by what I could dig up on these on old gunboards and things posted elsewhere.

AKBlue and others were trying to get somewhere with these, but if this is a different character who knows.

I cannot get my camera to dig the light with either a flash or flood lights...so this is the best pic I have, it looks like a pointy D on the left of a triangly thing with a point on top, over a fancy pi symbol on the bottom if that helps.  If the sun every comes out again, perhaps I will fare better outside in the daytime.

The DB and character seem to be directly in line with each other vs the serial, and are struck about as lightly...I think it is a stamp for both.  It also looks like a proper B vs a double struck flipped P like many others appear....

[Loose}{Cannon]

Yeah....  I dont think we have that one.  We need a clear pic.

Arsenal Stamps - Chinese SKS Guide

[running-man]

Yup, very tough to get photos of those Chinese characters indoors Justin.

I'm far from Chinese fluent, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.  Here are a few of the easier characters I've "translated" with google translate, I'm guessing it's none of these?

五六式 = Wǔliů shě.  Translates to: "5 6 Type"
公安 = gōng ān.  Translates to: "Security Forces"
精度枪 = Jīngdů qiāng.  Translates to: "Accuracy Gun"
延 = Yán. Translates to “Delay, Extend, Prolong, Postpone, or Invite”
吉 = Jí. Translates to “Lucky”
丹 = Dān.  Translates to: "Red, Cinnabar, Pellet, or Powder”
白 = Bái. Translates to: “White, Showy, Arctic, Blank, Clear, Plain”


Edit: We now think we know what these singular symbols are really representing in the DB/DP guns.  See http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1002.0 for more info.

[Justin Hell]

It is not any of those characters, nor any of those listed on the guide.  Hooray...deeper we dig!

After I watch the Browns game tomorrow...provided I can see through the tears of joy or despair...I will try shoot another better pic.

[Justin Hell]

Here are another couple of attempts on that new Chinese character...a bit better, but it is lightly struck, and I am unsure whether it is even a complete stamp.  The closest I could get on Mobilefish translated to 'Beginning'  but I wasn't entirely convinced my drawing ability gave it an accurate idea of what to think...and what it translated it to, didn't quite look right to me.

[Murray]

No DB or PB on this one but thought I'd just post it over here for reference. If a pin were inserted in that receiver hole, the bolt would not drop fully into position. Expect it is for clearance or inspection maybe.

We've had hundreds, maybe thousands of SKSs come through our shop and this is the first one we've seen like this. We're used to seeing SKSs with the square shape "Locking Shoulder" semi-permanently installed in the receiver. It's what the Bolt drops down in front of and it controls the amount of head space. (as seen right near the center of this photo)


But we received a Factory 0221 barreled receiver from a customer and we noticed that on the sides of the receiver is a hole cross ways through it near where the Locking Shoulder should be. First thought was, "uh-oh! someone is trying to convert it from SA to FA." But then we realized that could not be the case and this hole was put there at the factory and would not allow FA function.

Then we noticed that the receiver itself had an area machined and hardened that acted as the Locking Shoulder.

And while we've seen screwed in barrel models and Chinese Pinned In models, we had never seen one that was a screw in barrel and had 2 vertical pins through the receiver and barrel threads. (apparently 3mm pins)


Questions:
Are Factory 0221's the only ones mfg'd this way? Apparently not as we see an 0220
Are all 0221's made this way?
Is this some sort of rarity that would increase it's value?

It's understandable about the Locking Shoulder actually being a part of the receiver but don't know why they would install 2 vertical cross pins in a screwed in barrel.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hey ben, good catch!

We have been seeing a whole array of configurations with these cast steel receivers. Everything from pinned and threaded, standaed threaded, to standard pinned.  Even normal pinning methods as well as the two vertical.   In my mind, I'm seeing all these [block] style arsenals are likely all the same location and what a busy facility it was.  Stamped guns and cast guns were really pushing the envelope in reguards to major design/manufacturing processes and the one thing they all have in common is the [block] type "arsenal" stamp.   

Value?..   I have seen quite a few cast receiver guns lately now that we know what to look for.  They are not nearly as rare as the sheet matal guns, but I would say in original un molested condition these cast receivers should command a $100 or $125 premium over a standard non /26\ rifle of the same erra. 

That non keystock locking lug receiver is a real strange and unique characteristic of the cast guns!

[Loose}{Cannon]

The other gun you showed is an interesting critter also....   looks scrubbed?

[Worm]

Justin, that is a new one me thinks. Gonna try to find out what it means?

[Murray]

Took one of the vertical cross pins out and see no evidence of threads. Guess they turned the shank, pressed it into the receiver, and pinned it twice.


The first one shown is more than scrubbed!    Dallas area cops, maybe Garland, did their thing on it. We used it for a while to test trigger tunes but found a better way. (would you believe ATF forced me to enter this into my log book?) 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Very interesting!   Thanks for the info Ben, I will uodate the chinese sks guide accordingly.   

[Justin Hell]

Dang...and I just posted on the other thread at the other place about my theories about the pinned, yet lugged barrels.  No evidence of threads blows that out of the water. 

I thought that perhaps the threads were drilled out and the pins were there to anchor the hardened metal of the barrel with more surface area on the softer receiver metal...with the threads only being there to guide it in, but the pins to make it a permanent install.

I would think that under fire, the cast metal threads would eventually begin to mushroom vs. the hardened steel of the barrel.

I can't believe the ATF would make you register that portion of receiver as a firearm Ben...that's just nuts!

[running-man]

Good stuff Ben.  I've long suspected that they reused 'incompatible' components at the smaller low production shops, because you see parts that really don't belong in a certain time period on a gun.

Here's one for example that popped up on gunboards a while back.



/316\ factory.  I've always assumed pressed & pinned barrel because all the other /316\s are traditional pressed & pinned, but this one sports an originally threaded receiver (notice the telltale 2 as the barrel match #).  Now I'm not sure anymore.  Maybe it is still a threaded barrel, but they just took off the lug to get it to index correctly to the non native receiver and the pin is there to keep it indexed since now they don't have a lug to tighten up against.  Maybe it is pressed & pinned though and they inserted a sleeve after they machined out the threads on the receiver to take up the excess space.  The big difference easily seen between the two is that they turned most of the meat on the short lug down on this one.  It's interesting that they did this as the RSB is an early style.  If it was pressed & pinned, there should have been plenty of clearance to leave the lug unmachined and just take off the threads as long as the flats were indexed correctly.