Wolf Performance Ammunition (black box)

[Dannyboy53]

We started out back in the Spring when we first got our SKS's with a half dozen boxes each of Tula and Wolf. Those two were the only kind available in this area. We settled on the Wolf 122 grain FMJ as it works in our carbines with no problems and is about as accurate as one could expect.

We have been buying our ammo through gunbot.net but for some reason recently we have not seen that particular round, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this. When we first started buying 7.62X39 we got a case for 19¢ per round and the last one we bought was 22¢.

Our observations of price and availability only cover about four months so for those of you that have been doing this for years, is this fluctuation a common thing or something else to be concerned about? Maybe because of the problems in the Ukraine?

I have seen some of the same type ammo we are using packaged almost exactly like ours except it states it is made in the Ukraine, all of ours indicates it was made in Russia. What is the difference here, just the location of the plants?

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[running-man]

I think the fluctuation is a pretty common thing these days Danny.  The situation in Ukraine most certainly has something to do with keeping demand up which in turn keeps the price elevated somewhat.  I fear we have sent the last of Golden Tiger for a good while

I bought some from ammoman back in 2010 (after the elections) and my receipt says I paid $225 shipped for a case of Wolf 123 gr. FMJ.  If you can get anything sub 20 cents a round these days (and it's not 'suspect' ammo for some reason), I think you're doing pretty darn good. 

As a reference, I might depress you with an AIM brochure I scrounged up from 2002:

[Worm]

Danny, the Wolf Black Box Polyformance HP ammo is what I normally use for hunting, it is actually very accurate ammo. The fluctuations are normal.

[running-man]

GT is indeed a pleasure to shoot.  The boat tail is a very nice bullet.  That brass cased RAS is very (and I mean VERY) similar to Yugo M67  It is pumped out of the same factory in Serbia from what I've read.  I'm not sure whether it's corrosive or not, you might want to try a nail test to make sure you don't need to clean immediately afterwards.

I'm slightly embarrassed to say I've never shot Fiocchi.  Brass cased and boxer primed right?  What does that run per round these days?

[Worm]

Yes, boxer primed & brass cased. It is expensive.. my local hardware store is the only one that sells it around my parts, and it is about $19/box of 20. Online before shipping is approx $15/20. So you're looking at almost $1/round.

That's why I'm buying a box at a time right now. Figured it may be nice to have 500-1k of some quality ammo sitting around over time.

It shoots very similar to WWB 7.62x39 IMO and seems to be even cleaner shooting.

[Dannyboy53]

Thanks guys. Running-man you are right, it is depressing to look back at those prices! Made me think of 1971 in Bossier City, La and paying 21¢ for a gallon of gas.

The last ammo we bought is WPA Polyformance 123 grain but it's FMJ also. Is that the same you are using Worm & how are the hollow points on expansion? I haven't bought any HP because I read that it was too unreliable.

Their HP is not at all unreliable, whether talking expansion, feeding in your sks, etc. I get very good groupings from the WPA Polyformance HP's also.

[Worm]

RM, here's Fiocchi at the cheapest ive seen it. Then again sgammo has always had decent prices. If I bought bulk id buy here:

http://www.sgammo.com/product/fiocchi/20-round-box-762x39-fmj-123-grain-premium-ammo-fiocchi-brass-case-boxer-primer-non-m

[running-man]

I definitely love SGAmmo.  Usually $22 to ship a case straight to my door.  It's very hard to beat their prices and their customer service (for me at least) has always been top notch.  I actually just bought 1000 rounds of Wolf Military Classic 7.62x39 in 124 gr. HP made by Barnaul, though it looks like the price recently went up by $15 (http://www.sgammo.com/product/wolf-performance-ammunition/1000-round-case-762x39-hollow-point-124-grain-wpa-wolf-military-).  Barnaul is the plant that makes Brown Bear. 

WMC used to use the 8m3 hollow point bullet in their 124 gr. rounds. (not sure that this batch necessarily does too, I have yet to verify it).  Word has it that Tulammo 124 gr. HP is 90% 8m3, but I haven't touched Tulammo in years.  Too dirty and too inconsistent for my liking.  That 8m3 is claimed to be one of the finer 7.62x39 hunting rounds out there, the expansion is consistent and works as designed.  Comparable performance to some of the more expensive Hornady rounds at a much cheaper cost. 

Some of the 122 and 123 gr. steel cased (Wolf, Brown Bear, Tulammo, Red Army Standard etc.) HPs have a very small, simple hole in the tip that does absolutely nothing for expansion.  The plated steel jacket may strip off, but the bulk of the bullet will remain intact and it often does not deform at all.  The 8m3 has prescribed serrations like you'd find in a quality handgun JHP and does expand.   I've got some blue box Ulyanovosk that is actually labelled 8m3 on the box and the holes are huge compared to some 122 gr. Wolf HPs I've got.  One of these days, I'll pull several bullets and slice them in half to show a nice comparison of them.

[Worm]

Cool that would be interesting to see. Sgammo is where I order my bulk. I am a big fan of brown bear and when plinking that's all i use, and sgammo is where i buy.

I am not a fan of tula/herters as well. I have had too many inconsistent shoots and I also hear of too many squibs occuring. No thanks..

I had 500 rounds of 8m3 Hp ammo that i got for $50 not too long ago from a co-worker. I turned it around a made a few bucks, though part of me wishes I held on to it.

For me, Brown bear is for plinking/stocking, (GT would be if it didnt disappear), Polyformance HP is for hunting, and now like I've said I turned to brass fiocchi for stocking slowly. Boxer primed means it is easily reloadable too. May be good for a rainy day.

I did have 500 rounds of Yugo M67, but to me.. the accuracy wasn't very great, and to have to worry about it being corrosive, and being berdan primed.. it just wasnt worth it IMO.

[Dannyboy53]

 I just looked up "8M3" to see what that meant and I read that the Tula plant makes Wolf ammo! For some reason I was thinking Tula and Ulyanovsk plants were totally different critters and Wolf (an importer only right?) markets the Ulyanovsk plant ammunition and Tula markets the Tula plant ammo.

According to this article...

"The Tula and Ulyanovsk ammunition plants' exports to the American market are now consolidated under the TulAmmo brand. Previously, these plants produced for various importers, one of which was the well known Wolf brand."
http://www.luckygunner.com/brands/tula-ammo#review

...apparently I'm way off base on my thinking. So if I'm understanding all this, the Wolf Ammo I have been using is Tula ammo?! We didn't choose the Tula because the Tula we initially bought was dirty and didn't feed well. We have NEVER had any problems with the Wolf brand and it burns fairly clean. So maybe that first lot of Tula I bought (six 20 round boxes) was a bad batch or Wolf is only marketing the Uly ammo? But then the article implies Wolf doesn't import from those two plants anymore! What the heck?

Also I ran across this list of ammo makers in Russia. It must not be a complete list, the Ulyanovsk plant isn't mentioned.

1. Tula Cartridge Works: http://www.wolfammo.ru/
2. Barnaul Cartridge Plant: http://www.barnaulpatron.ru/
3. Klimovsk Specialized Ammunition Plant: http://kspz.ru/
4. Novosibirsk Cartridge Plant: http://www.lveplant.ru/
5. Azot: http://www.azot-patron.ru/
6. Glavpatron: http://www.glavpatron.ru/
7. Iskra (A section of that establishment): http://www.nmz-iskra.ru/
8. Krasnoyarsk Chemical Plant- Record: http://khz-record.ru/
9. Pozis (A section of that enterprise): http://www.pozis.ru/product/patron/0/
10.Kirov Factory: http://www.pulya.kirov.ru/
11.Magnum-K (Safari): http://www.safari-prof.ru/
12.SKM Industry: http://www.skmindustry.ru/
13.Techcrim: http://techcrim.ru/
14.Vetter: http://www.vetter.ru/
15.Vympel: http://www.vympel-amursk.ru/

Source: http://www.russiadefence.net/t1885-ammunition-makers-in-russia

It seems like the more I learn about the SKS and it's ammo, the more questions pop up!

[running-man]

I don't know if you were around in the mid to late 2000s, there was a *very* bad batch of Wolf ammo that was much talked about back in '07.  Wolf seems to change suppliers as often as people change underwear!  :D  It's hard to be 100% certain where anything comes from in Russia anymore.  (one of the reasons the Kalishnakov ban is going to be so ridiculously hard to enforce)

[Dannyboy53]

I don't know if you were around in the mid to late 2000s, there was a *very* bad batch of Wolf ammo that was much talked about back in '07.  Wolf seems to change suppliers as often as people change underwear!  :D  It's hard to be 100% certain where anything comes from in Russia anymore.  (one of the reasons the Kalishnakov ban is going to be so ridiculously hard to enforce)

Thanks RM, that would explain a lot. I also read there was an explosion at one of the plants a while back and of course the crap going on in the Ukraine has to have some effect also.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I know ine thing....   Wolf brand 22lr is made by the same co as SK and is some of the best match 22lr ammo there is. 

[Power Surge]

I know ine thing....   Wolf brand 22lr is made by the same co as SK and is some of the best match 22lr ammo there is.

Wolf .22 doesn't have much to do with any of their centerfire ammo. It's made by Laupua (Finnish company, .22 plant is in Russia), who as you stated, also makes the SK brand. Just like most brands, they have different standards of ammo models. Wolf and SK are considered mid-grade match ammo, which is still pretty damn good.

As for our SKS ammo, I have been shooting the Tula since owning both my SKS'. My LGS sells it for 6.99 a box, and when WalMart has it, it's 5.99 a box (of 20). I usually just re-buy what I shoot each week. I've shot the hollow points too, and as previously mentioned, the little hole it the tip is kind of comical.

I was having feed issues with the Norinco, but it was the 20 round star mag that was the cause, not the ammo. However, when I was having issues, the "flat" end of the hollow points did cause more problems since we have no feed ramp. But once I put a stock 10 round back on, I have had zero issues with the Tula in ether gun. So it was never really the ammo's fault.

Concerning the Tula/Wolf thing, if I remember reading correctly, there was some issues with the primers not long ago, and I think the Wolf has switched to a different primer brand than the Tula? I could be wrong, but that's what I read somewhere.

[running-man]

PS,

Centerfire is running a special on a case of Klimovsk white box: http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AM762100AB.aspx

$199 with a shipping charge anywhere between $16 and $34 is pretty hard to beat today ($0.23/round).  I wish I had waited a few weeks, I bought some Wolf 124 gr HP a while back and wound up paying $254 shipped for the case.  I know it's hard for some to swallow that $200+ number in one go, but when you consider your time, gas, possible availability issues, 3 box limit aggravation, and added sales tax for the WM Tula, you're easily paying $0.35 to $0.40/round for the small boxes.

I think we're going to see a mini short-squeeze on Russian ammo as the current stocks run dry and it takes them a while to get new shipments through the legal hurdles of verifying that they are complying with the import bans.

[Power Surge]

PS,

Centerfire is running a special on a case of Klimovsk white box: http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AM762100AB.aspx

$199 with a shipping charge anywhere between $16 and $34 is pretty hard to beat today ($0.23/round).  I wish I had waited a few weeks, I bought some Wolf 124 gr HP a while back and wound up paying $254 shipped for the case.  I know it's hard for some to swallow that $200+ number in one go, but when you consider your time, gas, possible availability issues, 3 box limit aggravation, and added sales tax for the WM Tula, you're easily paying $0.35 to $0.40/round for the small boxes.

I think we're going to see a mini short-squeeze on Russian ammo as the current stocks run dry and it takes them a while to get new shipments through the legal hurdles of verifying that they are complying with the import bans.

I was doing some searching today after seeing this post and came across a lot of good deals on the 1000 rounds, similar to the one you posted. One of my customers at work is a Wolf master distributor for the south east US, so I'm going to see what he can do for me first. He usually stops by with a box or so of free ammo (hand gun ammo) for those of us that shoot, but I need a little more than that for my SKS's, lol.

[Dannyboy53]

Right now The Armory has cases of Wolf WPA for $206 (on sale), shipping was 12.50.

http://www.the-armory.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/wolf-wpa-polyformance-762x39mm-fmj.html

[bbush44]

PS,

Centerfire is running a special on a case of Klimovsk white box: http://www.centerfiresystems.com/AM762100AB.aspx

$199 with a shipping charge anywhere between $16 and $34 is pretty hard to beat today ($0.23/round).  I wish I had waited a few weeks, I bought some Wolf 124 gr HP a while back and wound up paying $254 shipped for the case.  I know it's hard for some to swallow that $200+ number in one go, but when you consider your time, gas, possible availability issues, 3 box limit aggravation, and added sales tax for the WM Tula, you're easily paying $0.35 to $0.40/round for the small boxes.

I think we're going to see a mini short-squeeze on Russian ammo as the current stocks run dry and it takes them a while to get new shipments through the legal hurdles of verifying that they are complying with the import bans.

RM- I have never used the Klimovsk white box, whats the skinny on it? Good for plinking? Reliable? I've shot about any cheap 7.62x39 I could find through my AK. I have stuck to GT or M67 on my sks's, but GT is long gone and I can't justify shooting only M67. I have been looking at all the different bears(brown, sliver, golden) at SGAMMO, but don't know much about either of them.

Brian

[running-man]

Brian, I hate to say I've never shot any of it either! 

I can pass on to you what I've read through:
Good plinking ammo that is more consistent and somewhat cleaner than Tulammo.  I hear it falls a bit short of GT performance due to bullet design, but otherwise compares pretty favorably with the other flavors of Russian steel cased ammo.

Any way you cut it, it's still mass produced, Russian steel cased, Berdan primed ammo - there's always a chance with any of it that there will be a lot that gets through with some kind of QC issues.  I think it's just the nature of the beast.    SGAmmo had brown bear for around the same price I paid for the 124 gr Wolf HP, but it was a 123 gr. FMJ round.  I have enough of that flavor, I was looking to get some more HP, and the 124 gr. WMC has been mentioned as 8m3-like before.  Silver bear has a very nice 154 gr. soft point that people have posted is an excellent round for hog hunting.  I have 500 rounds of that stashed away somewhere that I bought back when $0.13/round was expensive.  I've never used golden bear, but if I'm going to pay a premium, I think I'd really be looking at a real brass cased, boxer primed ammo like the Fiocchi, S&B, Privi, or Arsenal instead of a brass plated, steel cased type ammo like Golden Bear.   

[bbush44]

Thanks RM,
I have several ammo cans full of GT, but now that I can't just order more I have been looking for an alternative for plinking. According to centerfires website shipping would be $20 for me. So for around $.22/round I might just order some up.
Brian