Shooting with/without bayonets

[Dannyboy53]

Yeah there are a lot of things to consider and in my opinion many are not worth the trouble frankly with these little critters. They are capable of only so much as far as accuracy goes. For Mary and I at least, we have reached that point with our carbines. They run very well on Wolf 122 gr FMJ as we are consistently getting 1" groups at the 25 meter targets. From what I have read and learned from you guys that's about as good as it gets! It theoretically translates to a high probability of hits to about 200 yards which is probably the longest shot one will get in our hilly, heavily wooded region.

Bass I didn't mention this in my initial post but the carbine I used did not have a bayonet when I first got it. As I said earlier it was also in a jungle stock and shooting the same ammo my best was 2" groups at 25m. Now that it's shooting tighter I'm sure going to the wood stock had a lot to do with that, but obviously the bayonet affected the groups also!

Lot numbers refer to the powder GM, and the characteristics do change from one lot to another. When Snipers change to ammo with a different lot # they must re-zero ("re-dope") their rifles.

The three carbines we have are our "SHTF" guns frankly, we don't expect extreme accuracy out of them. Just to do what they were intended to do and they do it well. That's what initially drew us to select them as our go-to guns.

BTW, routeus1 thanks for that link!

[Power Surge]

I tried this today at the range with my newest 0406b gun. The grouping with the spike bayonet extended was literally HALF the size of the groupings with it put away! I was pretty shocked.

[Justin Hell]

I so need to try this, I just need to find the time and save up for ammo resupply...its the perfect excuse.  "Gotta go shooting, we are doing this research project..."

 

[Greasemonkey]

What if    one country bayonet is slightly heavier than another countries bayonet?
What is the ideal/least ideal bayonet weight for the highest/lowest accuracy?? 
Does a loose fitting bayonet cause higher or lower accuracy than a tight bayonet, because if it rattles, it could be altering barrel harmonics??
Does a bayonet thats mounted upside down effect it? What about saggy bayonets, where the bayonet doesn't contact the stock ferrule??
Do gold colored or M59 Yugo dull matte finish bayonets alter the trajectory vs a normal dull chrome finish bayonet??
Do spike bayonets cause any difference vs blade style??
Oh, and what about 3 blood groove vs 4 blood groove vs paratrooper??

Just pondering and, the only stupid question is the unasked question  

[Power Surge]

What if    one country bayonet is slightly heavier than another countries bayonet?
What is the ideal/least ideal bayonet weight for the highest/lowest accuracy?? 
Does a loose fitting bayonet cause higher or lower accuracy than a tight bayonet, because if it rattles, it could be altering barrel harmonics??
Does a bayonet thats mounted upside down effect it? What about saggy bayonets, where the bayonet doesn't contact the stock ferrule??
Do gold colored or M59 Yugo dull matte finish bayonets alter the trajectory vs a normal dull chrome finish bayonet??
Do spike bayonets cause any difference vs blade style??
Oh, and what about 3 blood groove vs 4 blood groove vs paratrooper??

Just pondering and, the only stupid question is the unasked question  

I shoot .22 benchrest and barrel tuning is a hardcore science in that field, so I know a "little" about it (just getting into it).

When you fire a rifle, the barrel flexes up and down (kinda like those old movies of bridges flexing and collapsing during high winds) to a specific harmonic. The end of the barrel is usually in a different "point of flex" at the time the bullet exits it. The idea behind tuning, is to get the barrel to be in the same "point of flex" every time a shot is fired so that the bullet follows the same path every time.

My personal feeling is that the spike bayo acts more like a vibration buffer, since it's a more rigid piece of metal. The blade bayo flexes way more and I think the blade type ADDS to the barrel flex issue.

That's my view though and I have nothing to back that up. Maybe I'll try this again with my Yugo and see how the blade bayo affects it.

[Greasemonkey]

So, basically, there is to many variables across the spectrum, because I haven't even broached ammo consistency, yet   I mean, come on, we have steel cased, bi-metal jacketed rounds mass produced at a million plus rounds a day with outdated worn equipment, dubious quality assurance, with a round here, a round there inspections. All the while being built with components made by the lowest bidder. I mean x39 isn't and was never designed for or by any means some hoopty Lake City uber target grade  blow a gnats azz off at 2million yards ammo, heck it ain't even as good as Swiss GP11 everyday run of the mill milsurp stuff. It's cheap commie ammo from commie weapons which used correctly and within it's limitations, do the job as intended, put bunches of holes in stuff.  

But, in theory, just eliminating the ammo aspect, controlling that aspect alone, should contribute greatly to accuracy. In the same theory, you could conceivably create a load for bayonets in and bayonet extended, because each different loading should or could create a different barrel harmonic.

OR!!!!

Just load, shoot and enjoy the dang thing, repeat, most importantly learn it inside and out, and quit making it harder than it really is. 

[Dannyboy53]

I tried this today at the range with my newest 0406b gun. The grouping with the spike bayonet extended was literally HALF the size of the groupings with it put away! I was pretty shocked.

Power I'm glad you tried and experienced the same thing! Now I don't feel like I'm crazy, or wonder if others are thinking I've lost what little I have left.

Greasemonkey I chuckled through your post but the truth is all these things probably do affect our groups to some degree! This is a science I don't think anyone will ever fully understand.

This makes me think about Bow shooters, they use dampers and swear it works to smooth out vibration. I guess bayonets do the same.

[Greasemonkey]

Danny, your crazy in your own special way   but, many weapons are effected, not just the SKS by the bayonet, a M44/Type 53 Mosin is another perfect example. Just unfolding the bayonet on one of my M44s has the same effect as say, changing from Russian ammo to Bulgarian ammo in the point of impact, now the kicker, another M44 Mosin, displays little change extended or folded.

[Dannyboy53]

Greasemonkey my Mary thinks the same thing about me! But YOU are the prize winner!

All this is weird. I first started hearing about all this by the Mosin shooters on the web and decided to try it with our SKS. As I posted a while back, Mary's [0306] gun closes the group with the spike bayonet extended and the groups from my /26\ gun double in spread with the blade bayonet extended! I haven't yet tried our other /26\ gun with the spike bayonet, but I'm curious what it will do.

I remember you telling how much difference the fitting of the bands on some rifles will make in POI. I can imagine back in the day some soldier being accustomed to how his rifle is hitting only to break it down for cleaning and discovering his point of impact has changed!

[Carl in CT]

Just load, shoot and enjoy the dang thing, repeat, most importantly learn it inside and out, and quit making it harder than it really is. 

This. No offense to those doing research, I just don't have enough time or ammo to do it so I don't worry about it.

[bbush44]

I've got a couple of Ruger Mini 14's, and some of the diehards swear by barrel struts as the only way to make them accurate. Kind of seems like the same idea as the bayonet being attached to the barrel in two spots when it is extended on an SKS.

http://www.accu-strut.com/

http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm

[Dannyboy53]

Carl I understand what you are saying, I don't shoot as much as I want to or even need to but decided to do this out of curiosity. Besides...I needed the practice!

Interesting info Brian and thanks for the links.

[Greasemonkey]

I've got a couple of Ruger Mini 14's, and some of the diehards swear by barrel struts as the only way to make them accurate. Kind of seems like the same idea as the bayonet being attached to the barrel in two spots when it is extended on an SKS.

http://www.accu-strut.com/

http://sunfloweroutdoorsports.com/Mo-:Rod-2875-Barrel-Stabilizer-Accurizer-for-Ruger-Mini-14-MR3.htm

Mini 14, I owned one, I did the knock an inch of the barrel trick and recorded, it helped some in my case, but once I got my meat hooks on the Cz Varmint Kevlar in .223, the Mini was a thing of the past. I'm sure if I were to throw enough money, parts and time, it might approach the accuracy of the Cz, but again, it may not.

It's things like this were the lines blur, does one just buy a naturally accurate rifle and spend time and money practicing, or buy a not so accurate rifle and throw money and time at it and hope it becomes accurate through trial and error wasting time tweaking, adding this or that. And in the end have a Frankenstein that cost more more in the end than the more accurate weapon. In the end a weapon is only as good as the sum of the parts, the person shooting said weapon and ammo its fed.

[bbush44]

Mini 14, I owned one, I did the knock an inch of the barrel trick and recorded, it helped some in my case, but once I got my meat hooks on the Cz Varmint Kevlar in .223, the Mini was a thing of the past. I'm sure if I were to throw enough money, parts and time, it might approach the accuracy of the Cz, but again, it may not.

It's things like this were the lines blur, does one just buy a naturally accurate rifle and spend time and money practicing, or buy a not so accurate rifle and throw money and time at it and hope it becomes accurate through trial and error wasting time tweaking, adding this or that. And in the end have a Frankenstein that cost more more in the end than the more accurate weapon. In the end a weapon is only as good as the sum of the parts, the person shooting said weapon and ammo its fed.

Both of my Mini 14's are relatively stock, one ranch rifle and one none ranch rifle. The RR has an aftermarket synthetic stock, and a cheap 3x9x40 scope. Both are far from tack drivers, but I use my RR for coyotes and other varmints and it hits what I aim at. Rarely shoot paper unless I am double checking the scope. There are plenty of better more accurate 223's out there, but I own several Ruger's and have had pretty good luck with them.
I agree on the statement regarding buying a rifle and throwing money at it to try to make it something it is not, or just spend that money on a naturally accurate rifle. If I was looking for a tack driving 223 a semi auto it would not be. 

[Catmandoo]

Some what off subject, but, on target as well. I have some friends that shoot everything they own suppressed.
 They have found that while there is a small POI change with the suppessor on a standard or bull barell the change is greatly magnified to shot gun patterns on a fluted barell. This has to be due to harmonics, barell flex and the weight out on the end of the barell.
 I am working with one of them on a load for his Ruger American rifle in 7.62x39 in an effort to get it to group with a suppressor. Nice rifle and groups when naked but all over the paper with a can on it. The .270 with the fluted barell just needs to be rebarelled to run suppressed, it can't be corrected with what ever we run through it, accurate enough for deer or hogs with out the weight hanging on the end though. CMD