East German Information Thread

[Power Surge]

I wanted to try to start a dedicated thread here on the files, for collecting information about the East German "Karabiner-S" SKS. Since acquiring one, naturally I have been researching information about it, which I have found is VERY slim.

I also recently came across something strange...  While searching for a proper sling to go with this rifle, I had been led to several collectors over in Germany. The one who I have finally obtained a sling from, is a big collector of Russian and German military firearms and lives IN Germany. When I asked him if he had any good sources for info on this rifle, his response was "never heard of it"...

So let's add whatever information about the holy grail of SKS's to this thread. History, pictures, markings, etc, etc....everything is welcome. Friendly debates are welcome also, after all, questioning "known" information sometimes leads to more correct findings.

I'll start it off with a few bits of my own for discussion.

- The serials on the known guns we have seen, start with both 59 and 60, and those digits were stamped at a separate time from the rest of the serial. I believe this would indicate the year of manufacturer.

- There are two types of slings often seen with this rifle. One has an end that has been folded over and stitched, and the other has an end that has an extra part riveted on. I do not believe these slings were made specifically for the Karabiner-S, but were modified from previous use weapons to be used for this gun. After much research and discussion with German sling experts, I do believe that the slings used with the Karabiner-S come from both the K43 and the MP44.

- There are two different stampings found on the receiver next to the serial. One says "20Z" and the other says "1a". They both have the letters M f N V above them in an arc pattern. The 1a guns also have a ring of stamped dots around the entire stamping. My best guess, is that this could show two different production arsenals.

- In relation to the above mentioned stampings, many known guns have the M f N V crossed out with Xs. LC's research found that M f N V stands for Ministerium fur Nationale Verteidigung, which translates to Ministry for National Defense. A good question is why is it crossed out on some guns.

-Thoughts on various other stamping are welcome as well. For example, this gun has quite a few stamps that are rectangles with a letter K inside, followed by a number. And what the heck does "SV" stand for on the rear sight? lol

Any thoughts, pics, historical documents, etc, etc are welcome. Let's get all the East German info in one place!

[Loose}{Cannon]

I'm still wondering how he had a sling for a rifle he didn't know existed.   

I mean, was he under the impression it was for a dif rifle all together and you picked it out in a group pic of random sling?

[Power Surge]

I'm still wondering how he had a sling for a rifke he didn't know existed.   

Because the slings were from other guns. I e-mailed him pics of what I was looking for, and he said he had an original one off his MP44 he'd be willing to sell. I also verified that the sling he has is .900" wide, which I've read is the proper sling for the Karabiner-S, because the hole in the stock is slightly smaller and more common 1" wide slings don't really fit.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ah...

So in actuality, people have been looking for a sling that was actually used/developed for a dif gun entirely? 

[Power Surge]

Ah...

So in actuality, people have been looking for a sling that was actually used/developed for a dif gun entirely?

That is my best guess....  I spent a ton of time looking for an "east german sks" and "Karabiner-S"  sling. Nothing comes up except for all the listings for the canvas AK/SKS sling, and then posts of other EG owners finding slings. But there is no other reference to any sources for slings for this gun, nor any substantial information saying what the gun came with.

I knew some of the EG owners who had found slings, found them from people who thought they were something else. So I started looking at ALL possible German leather slings, in hopes to find one someone had listed wrong. That took me to some nice overseas pages on military slings, and I started seeing the two slings we know for the EG sks used on other weapons. One was the K43, and the other was the MP44, both of which were pre- Karabiner S.

Both of those weapons also show having used different versions of slings, and the last known variations were the stitched end and riveted end slings - which are what are considered the proper sling for the Karabiner-S. If the Karabiner-S was actually produced with no specific sling, then it would be logical that the leftover slings from previous guns would be those last designs, and therefore wound up used on the Karabiner-S.

This of course is my speculation based on the limited data I have found thus far, but I have not found anything else that shows any other answer. Hence the reason for this thread....to post and discuss information and hopefully come up with solid info (which is the main purpose of SKS-FILES).

[Loose}{Cannon]

I like it....  Nice work.   

[Dannyboy53]

Way to go Power, best of luck with this!

[Power Surge]

I found a german forum, where they were discussing the origins of the Karabiner-S, much like we do over here. Apparently, even in Germany, it's history is not very clear.

I translated all the pages, and here is what I found.

General consensus is that the Karabiner-S was used primarily by German border patrol. It was issued in much lower numbers than other German used weapons at the same time, like the Mosin M44. The Karabiner-S was only used for a few years, because just like Russia, it was replaced when the AK47 came out.

Some of the people on that forum were actual former military, and also interviewed former military who were around back then. Backing up the theory above, only people who were involved with border patrol, remember seeing the Karabiner-S. Most other former military people interviewed, said they didn't recognize the SKS at all.

[running-man]

I added info to the EG S/N tracking thread: http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1844.0 including links to all photos I have of verified guns (meant to do that a good while ago but never quite got to it).  Hopefully they help with this discussion.

[pcke2000]

I found a german forum, where they were discussing the origins of the Karabiner-S, much like we do over here. Apparently, even in Germany, it's history is not very clear.

I translated all the pages, and here is what I found.

General consensus is that the Karabiner-S was used primarily by German border patrol. It was issued in much lower numbers than other German used weapons at the same time, like the Mosin M44. The Karabiner-S was only used for a few years, because just like Russia, it was replaced when the AK47 came out.

Some of the people on that forum were actual former military, and also interviewed former military who were around back then. Backing up the theory above, only people who were involved with border patrol, remember seeing the Karabiner-S. Most other former military people interviewed, said they didn't recognize the SKS at all.

Interesting, that may explain why the East German issued SKS user's and repair manuals are pretty much a translation of the Soviet Edition, despite EG SKS is different from Soviet's. I was a bit surprised to see the drawing of the entire SKS in the EG manual still has cleaning rod beneath the barrel.

[Power Surge]

I have found this post from 2010, in reference to someone asking about markings and where the Karabiner-S was made:

"On Soviet-made small arms, the DDR-usage mark was normally a number 1 within a triangle. On Mosin-Nagants this was normally found on the barrel knox-form underneath the Russian or Soviet arsenal mark and serial number. DDR 'one in a triange' markings are also occassionally found on Soviet M1895 Nagant revolvers.

For small arms made in the DDR the markings were different. I know that the SKS-45 and AK-47 rifles made in East Germany were built at the Ernst Thaelmann Works in Suhl. The Thaelmann Works were formerly the Simson Works which later became Berlin Suhler-Waffen in the early years of the Third Reich and by WWII had been re-named again as the Gustloff Werke. After WWII at the time of the Soviet Occupation of Germany and the start of the DDR in 1949, the Gustloff Werke was combined with other arsenals in Suhl, like Gebruder Merkel, and J.P. Sauer and Sons, to form the state-owned Ernst Thaelmann Works. Ernst Thaelmann was a German Communist who, if I remember correctly, was imprisoned by the Third Reich and died in Bergen-Belsen KZ.

The Thaelmann marking is a half circle with lines coming out of it - kind of a 'rising sun' mark. East German SKS-45's - designated the 'Karabiner-S' in official DDR nomenclature were built there and - I assume - the DDR version of the AK, the MPiKM.

Hope this helps. "

I could not find much on that Thaelmann (thalemann) mark, but I did find this:



My Karabiner-S has those suhl factory circle in a diamond markings on it in several places.

[Power Surge]

Some more interesting info...

Apparently, like other countries, the Germans used the SKS later on in years as ceremonial rifles.

The rifles were used by the Friedrich Engels Guards Regiment, which was a special guard division that generally handled special ceremonies, military events, and honor related protocols. Supposedly there was a regular issue Karabiner-S, and a ceremony issue version with chrome bayonet and buttplate. Ironically...sure sounds like the "polish" stocks...

Here is a link to a good read with pics. Using google translate:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&u=http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D705717&usg=ALkJrhgv_CCOSxkF7W5ioBpALHZoRxNF0Q

[Loose}{Cannon]

The parade stocks have a very deep dish buttplate.... Very dif from the polish.

[Loose}{Cannon]

And dont forget all the /1\ marks misidentified on mosins like the sks... Not ddr