World War 8mm Mauser: Surplus ammo accuracy/reliability/velocity test

[Blicero]

I was cleaning out my gun room, sorting out some ammo, when I realized I had a veritable melting pot of different nations' 8mm Mauser. It's like the gotdanged United Nations in my ammo can. I packed it all up along with some of my favorite 8mm bangsticks and took them to the range to do a little ammo compare/contrast. Here's how it all went down. The lineup:



From left to right we have Pre-WW2 German, Romanian, Turkish, 50's Yugo, Ecuadorian, old American reloads, Yugo m75, and finally some old Egyptian crap.

All of the following results came from the Lubecker k98k.

-----------------------

EGYPT

Aside from being generally repulsed by anything pertaining to African, Middle Eastern, or Islamic culture, this ammo is the reason why I got out of the Helwan, FN49, Rasheed and Hakim game. If I can't trust the Egyptians to make reliable, safe, consistent and good ammo, why should I trust them to do it with their firearms?

Pure and simple, this is crap ammo. Hang fires are one thing, but having enough time to eat a sandwich between click and ignition is another. I mean, as I type this, I'm still waiting for some of this Egyptian junk ammo to go off. That's what you can consistently expect from it.

Here's what it registered on the chronograph:
2351 fps (struck thrice, hang fire)
2393 (hang fire)
2424
2469
2329 (hang fire)

It's pretty tough to keep the sights on target for 9 seconds waiting for the hang fires to go off, so I figured this group would be all over the map. It turned out to be the best group of the day:



Thinking this must be a fluke, I loaded up another 10 shots and chrono'd 5 of them:

2413 fps
2322
2357 (hang fire)
2444 (struck twice, hang fire)
2384 (hang fire)

I was right, it was a fluke. The groups were scattered, as expected, with no particular rhyme or reason to them, about 6-8". Basic shotgun patterns...

Verdict: This ammo is great if you enjoy the terrifying and exhilarating experience of hang fires, or enjoy playing the popular quiz show called Will It Go Off? Stay away from it.

-----------------------------------------

TURKEY   (head stamped T C / 1943 / FS / 7.9)

Sometimes you'll come across some Turkish 8mm that did not survive the test of time, it will look nasty and corroded and downright unshootable. But the stuff I have looks great- clean, almost looks brand new. I don't think I've ever shot this ammo before, all three of my bandoleers were packed to the brim with clips.

I shot 5 rounds, realized I whiffed the paper high, and shot 5 more giving it a 6 o'clock hold:



Here's what it registered on the chrono:
2868 fps
2882
2855
2919
2826
2802
2975
2906
2821
2724

Verdict: Obviously, this is some hot stuff, pushing the limit of the round. It all went off smoothly and without duds or hangs. I was irked that I whiffed the paper, but stuff happens. I bet with some tweaking and practice, this could be good accurate surplus ammo. I wish I had more of it.

-----------------------------------------

ECUADOR  (head stamped 7.92  A  1955  A)

I've never shot this Ecuadorian ammo before. I read mixed reviews about it, some people gripe about duds and hangs while others say it's great stuff.

Again, I whiffed the paper with the first 5. I knew I was missing far to the right (weird!), so I loaded up 5 more and held off about 3" left of 9'oclock:



Not a bad group for iron sights, a 70-yr old rifle and surplus ammo, in my opinion. The strong headwinds weren't helping my cause either. Here's what it read on the chrono:

2477 fps
(error)
2481
(error)
2488
2647
2442
2455
2555
2637

Quite the large range in velocity!
Verdict: Decent ammo, from what I can tell. No duds, no misfires, no hangs. My only gripe is my k98 did not like extracting these rounds. Right at the top of cocking the bolt while opening it, it would get a bit sticky and rough, highly out of character for this eternally silky k98. The case heads look ok but the edge of the necks came out with a flattened and rough edge, if that tells you anything. I want to blame that on the fact that these rounds were probably meant for machine guns. I don't think Ecuador ever issued Mausers in 8mm.


-----------------------------------

Romania  (head stamped 22  72)

This is the 8mm I recommend to everyone, it's the stuff I shoot with the most regularity. I've found that different lots of it will be vastly different in terms of where it shoots, but each individual lot will be consistent in where it hits. For example- I just killed a tin of it last week. All of it shot to POA @ 100 yards with regularity. I cracked open a new tin for this shooting session and here's where it shot:



That's a good 4" up & right. I shot another group and it did the exact same thing. Here's what the Romanian registered on the chrono:

2651 fps
2590
2637
2595
2636
2666
2583
2579
2623
2660

Ah crap. I just got yelled at to go start dinner. I'll finish this later. Damn, I'm more whipped than Runningman.


Here are a couple other shots I snagged. My partner shooting the Bambi blasting Spanish Mauser carbine and my G43 looking like the glorious cocky monster it is.

[running-man]

EGYPT

Aside from being generally repulsed by anything pertaining to African, Middle Eastern, or Islamic culture, this ammo is the reason why I got out of the Helwan, FN49, Rasheed and Hakim game. If I can't trust the Egyptians to make reliable, safe, consistent and good ammo, why should I trust them to do it with their firearms?

So, what did you do with your Egyptian guns?… Hey, wait a minute!  

You're dead wrong about the SAFN49 by the way, Belgian made, quality that makes that G43 look like a Jimenez.  You just had an aversion to arabic writing on that Egyptian contracted gun you had!  Maybe a Luxembourg contract 30-06 would float your boat a bit better…

Ah crap. I just got yelled at to go start dinner. I'll finish this later. Damn, I'm more whipped than Runningman.

Hey now, let's get this straight.  "I" make all the decisions in my household!  "I" just have to ask permission to make them first! 

I've got some ammo that you didn't mention including some '48-'49 Greek that is amazingly sweet stuff!  Lemme see what I can round up since I don't shoot anything anyway.  Maybe we can get you to add them into your comparison and you could actually produce something useful around here! 

[Blicero]

I knew I could get you wound up with both of those comments 

Comparing the g43, produced hastily in Hail Mary efforts in factories that were getting bombed in wartime, to the peacetime fn49 is a bit of a stretch, but I see your point. My 49s were decently made and served me well. Calling it an Egyptian gun may be a stretch though. But it only furthers my point that African guns are trash. And if the Egyptians maintained their FN49s as poorly as they maintained their ammo and their Hakims, does it really matter what nationality the gun's origins are? The finest of finely manufactured machinery is reduced to brittle junk if neglected, abused, and unmaintained.

I guess xenophobia or ethnocentrism can get the better of me. I can see why my dad calls me Archie Bunker. But I yam what I yam, Popeye. Lately I've become wary of the power in front of my face rocking the bolt, barrel & receiver upon firing. I want to, have to, trust the people who made the gun. I just can't say that about too many countries. I'd prefer to keep my face.

[Phosphorus32]

I don't know about your Xenaphilia being a problem...I mean who doesn't like the warrior princess 

Anyhow, that's a nice comparison.  That Turkish ammo is definitely hot stuff.  Were the bullets the same mass in all cases?  Would like to see some Yugo M75 ammo thrown in there too (along with Joe's HXP).  I may have to order some of that Romanian.  Looks to be the most consistent ammo in regard to velocity.

Turkey   Ecuador    Egyptian   Romania   
2868   2477   2351   2651   
2882              2393   2590   
2855   2481   2424   2637   
2919              2469   2595   
2826   2488   2329   2636   
2802   2647   2413   2666   
2975   2442   2322   2583   
2906   2455   2357   2579   
2821   2555   2444   2623   
2724   2637   2384   2660
   
2858   2523   2389   2622   Average
70           81        49        33   StDev

[Blicero]

I love the Romanian stuff. It always goes off, never a dud, never a hang. And in my experience it's been the most accurate 8mm I've ever shot, and I can see why, with that narrow velocity range.

I only shot 5 rounds of the Yugo m75. I wasn't particularly awed by the group, it was probably around 6". Along with the older '50's Yugo ammo, this is obviously the softest load of any of them. It clocked in at:

2400 fps
2385
2391
2423
2385

1953 Yugo:
2404
2384
2391
2416
2374
2354
2477
2440
2302
2465

I have a lot of experience with the Yugo ammo. Sometimes it can be a bit finicky about needing two strikes, and maybe one in 20 will hang fire. Today was all gravy though. It didn't group particularly well- 6" and 8". I'm tempted to blame the Indian there and not the arrow, Cochise.


Just for fun, I was able to clock some rounds on the G43 before my buddy commandeered the Chrony.
The G43 Romanian group:
2545 fps
2618
2595
2604
2551

G43 Egyptian:
2287 fps
2314
2343
2326
2333

[Phosphorus32]

Very cool    I love data     I think I need a chronograph 

Fascinating stuff Kevin.  Thanks for doing this 

The M75 had the best SD but with a smaller sample size so a bit of additional spread might be expected for 10 shots.  Of course consistent velocity is just one factor of many affecting precision.  I'm definitely impressed by the performance of the Romanian ammo.

The Romanian and Egyptian were very consistent in regard to velocity in the two very different rifles.

[Phosphorus32]

No hangfires when you ran the Egyptian hummus through the G43?   It looks like it might of liked it 

...not that I'd trust it given it's abysmal performance in the K98 

[Dannyboy53]

Way ta go Blicero, thanks. Do you still have an FN49? I had an opportunity to buy one (.30-06) in great condition for $45 when I was a dumb-arse teenager. I have regretted not dropping those bills for that rifle ever since!

[running-man]

Very cool    I love data     I think I need a chronograph 

Laugh Jon!!!  I thought both of these things as I've been perusing this thread!

It amazes me that 71 year old Turkish is still pushing darn near 3000 fps!!!  I've got some late '50s era Turkish 8mm, I wonder if Turkish simply has low age degradation or if we'd see a distinct difference in 10 year newer ammo?

[Garand1957]

The best surplus 8mm ammo IMHO is the 1970's Yugo.
I'm down to 2 full 900 round crates and a third about half gone.
Really wish I had more. Vastly better (more accurate) than the 1950's stuff.

[Dannyboy53]

Guys I've never looked into these things but I'm assuming () there was no surviving German surplus ammo after WWII? Or what little there might have been has been shot up by now.

[Phosphorus32]

The best surplus 8mm ammo IMHO is the 1970's Yugo.
I'm down to 2 full 900 round crates and a third about half gone.
Really wish I had more. Vastly better (more accurate) than the 1950's stuff.

I only have about 10% of your 8mm stores

[Blicero]

I had to dump the Fn49s when I could find neither chrysanthemum, bomb ordnance stamp, or waffenamt on any of them. I had to fuel the WW2 addiction somehow.

That first box on the left is German prewar ammo, made in Lubeck, same town as the k98 I was shooting. I didn't shoot it though. I get the feeling it's valuable. I never quite could wrap my noodle around cartridge collecting. It's sort of like collecting bicycle handle bars or classic car steering wheels- they're just small random pieces that make the actual collectible useful. I still think I'm going to keep this German box intact though. You can get wartime German ammo for a buck a round, maybe less, I don't know, that's way above my pay grade when it comes to ammo.

Nice work Jon, thanks for the visual aid, so much more accessible than my messy arrangement of numbers. The G43 ate up the Egyptian stuff sans hiccups. Knock wood praise Shiva.

[Blicero]

I have to spend some more time with the m75. With consistency like that, one of my rifles is bound to love that ammo.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I have a box of German 8mm with swastikas on the box and tiny ones on the headstamp of each round... I should have you identify.   

Great thread/post Kevin.... good stuff.

[Dannyboy53]

I have a box of German 8mm with swastikas on the box and tiny ones on the headstamp of each round... I should have you identify.   

Great thread/post Kevin.... good stuff.

Pictures, I'd like to see that? 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Wont be home until about tues... Ill have to get some pics.

[Phosphorus32]

Widener's shows the Romanian light ball ammo as 150gr but J&G lists it as 154gr. Turkish appears to be 154gr from internet info. The M75 and standard Yugoslavian 8mm is the typical heavy ball weight at 196gr.  In any case the calculated ballistic energies are shown below in Fig. 2.



That Turkish stuff is hot no matter how you slice it    112% of the energy of the Yugo sniper ammo.  The Romanian has 94% of the energy of the Yugoslavian assuming the heavier weight of 154gr 

Since there isn't a suitable *geek* smiley...

[running-man]

Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: 

Kevin, I've got:

• '51 Turkish (I know I have newer Turkish, I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!)
• '39 Greek (PCH headstamp)
• '51 Iranian (not the crown headstamped stuff that people are having issues with, though everywhere I read pans this stuff badly...)
• and finally some gorgeous 1999 PPU produced 'sniper' M75.

for you to test out in that same K98 (if you would be so kind )

Package going out today hopefully.

[Phosphorus32]

Hey Danny, I don't have any old 8mm Mauser cartridges but at the risk of evoking the wrath of Dominus Blicero  here are some pictures of 8x56R cartridges for the M95 Steyr manufactured in Nov. '38 after the Austrian Anschluss (March '38) and hence Nazi stamped (I dont' even have an M95 but I got a few boxes of this stuff in a random lot of old ammo)   



Nazi eagle stamps on enbloc clips


Headstamps

Laugh, the geek smiley is often this one Jon: 

I seem to have misplaced 1200 rounds of ammo!!

Good smiley info, thanks Joe 

Re the misplaced ammo: