SKS-FILES FORUM
General Milsurp Weapons => General C&R Information => Topic started by: running-man on November 27, 2014, 09:51:52 AM
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Disclaimer: SKS-files.com is not composed of legal experts, we do our absolute best to make sure that what we post here is accurate, thorough, and factually based. Still, it is the epitome of foolishness to listen to “a guy on the internet” as your sole basis for legal advice. If you have specific questions about this subject, you should consult appropriate legal council who specialize in firearms law or contact the ATF directly to obtain a formal determination about your particular firearm or issue.
27 CFR § 478.11 (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=74db887501d3590c3d329263bff46dd0&node=pt27.3.478&rgn=div5#se27.3.478_111) defines "curios or relics" as:
Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
ATF has compiled a list of firearms covered by the B and C conditions above and has published them in a large list in PDF format and several updates available as standard HTML web pages:
Firearms Curios or Relics List (1972 – 2007) (6 MB) (https://www.atf.gov/file/2026/download)
Update March 2001 through May 2005 (https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-march-2001-may-2005.html)
Update May 2005 through May 2006 (https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-may-2005-may-2006.html)
Update May 2006 through December 2007 (https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-may-2006-december-2007.html)
Update January 2008 through December 2008 (https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-january-2008-december-2008.html)
Update January 2009 through June 2010 (https://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/curios-relics/update-january-2009-june-2010.html)
Firearms Curios or Relics List (1972 - 2018) (587.34 KB) (https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download)
There are two very important things to remember when attempting to classify a military surplus firearm as C&R or not.
- Per ATF, "Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list." This is one of the things that seems to cause the most confusion, and 99% of the time, it is a standard federal firearm licensee licensed to engage in the business of buying and selling firearms (FFL01) that makes the mistake of misclassifying a C&R firearm because "it's not on the list".
- Per ATF Ruling 85-10 (http://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-85-10.pdf), ATF has determined that the intent of Congress in crafting the law that created the C&R firearms category was to permit the importation of surplus military firearms of special interest and value to collectors and recognized by ATF as meeting the curio or relic definition in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 (http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=3d38a0bec468237ffd08749b9bc4f1e7&node=pt27.3.478&rgn=div5#se27.3.478_111).
They specifically state:
Held, to be importable under 18 U.S.C. 925(e) (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2013-title18/html/USCODE-2013-title18-partI-chap44-sec925.htm), surplus military firearms must be classified as curios or relics by ATF. Applications by licensed importers to import frames or receivers alone of surplus military curio or relic firearms will not be approved under section 925(e). Surplus military firearms will not be classified as curios or relics, and applications for permits to import such firearms approved, unless they are assembled in their original military configuration.
Thus a military surplus firearm must be in original military configuration to be considered a C&R firearm.
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Drilling and scoping a c&r won't remove it from c&R status. Isn't that correct?
If I renew a c&r after 16 months without having one, do I have to log the entire collection I acquired while unlicensed?
Their list of c&r guns seems incomplete. Is it safe to assume anything 50+ years old is automatically c&R even if they are not included in the list?
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The definition for curio or relic (“C & R”) firearms found in 27 C.F.R. § 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm
must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the
importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a
C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has
concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts,
non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have
determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be
acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but
replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
If I renew a c&r after 16 months without having one, do I have to log the entire collection I acquired while unlicensed?
No, you technically did not or were not licensed in this 16 month time frame. You document those you acquire during your license period. You can add them in if you wish, just notate they were pre-license purchase.
Is it safe to assume anything 50+ years old is automatically c&R even if they are not included in the list?
I've wondered the same, because this is technically C&R :o Now, the Marlin Model 99 pre-dates the Model 60, Model 99 Marlins were made 1959 through 1961. So technically this Marlin 99 would be in excess of 50 years old and is theoretically C&R. thumb1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Rimfire/Marlin%2099/HPIM0739_zpsdae7e857.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Rimfire/Marlin%2099/HPIM0739_zpsdae7e857.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Rimfire/Marlin%2099/HPIM0741_zps70d048b3.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Rimfire/Marlin%2099/HPIM0741_zps70d048b3.jpg.html)
As is this, my S&W Model 29-2 .44 Magnum, according to S&W, the serial dates it to 1963. It also is C&R according to the 50 year rule. thumb1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/HPIM0216.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/HPIM0216.jpg.html)
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If I renew a c&r after 16 months without having one, do I have to log the entire collection I acquired while unlicensed?
No, you technically did not or were not licensed in this 16 month time frame. You document those you acquire during your license period. You can add them in if you wish, just notate they were pre-license purchase.
What GM says is correct. You don't have to log the entire collection all over again. However, remember that if you have a C&R FFL03 license and sell a C&R firearm that you have in your collection that was acquired prior to you getting your license (inherited, bought, acquired with a now expired C&R etc.), you must log the disposition of that firearm in your current bound book. Many people think that if they let their FFL03 expire and then get another one after some specified period of time, they are free and clear of having to keep track of all those guns they previously acquired. Not true, you must log all dispositions, regardless of when you originally acquired them.
Is it safe to assume anything 50+ years old is automatically c&R even if they are not included in the list?
I've wondered the same, because this is technically C&R :o Now, the Marlin Model 99 pre-dates the Model 60, Model 99 Marlins were made 1959 through 1961. So technically this Marlin 99 would be in excess of 50 years old and is theoretically C&R. thumb1
This is a good question, and probably will get it's own FAQ question. GM is right again though, both those firearms are C&R as the current rules read. They were a bit loose when they wrote the law and simply used 'firearms' in the C&R definition from 27 CFR § 478.11. There is nowhere that says the firearms must be military firearms or non-domestic imported firearms specifically. Additionally, they also didn't specifically say 50 years old counted from the 1984 date the law was passed, but instead said "Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date...", meaning that the 50 year old requirement rolls along with the current date (ie. 50 years back from 2014 is 1964, 50 years back from 2020 will be 1970 and so on). thumb1
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So..... basically, if both you and a seller/buyer both agree a chinese sks is a 1963 manufactured rifle and is over 50 years old = c&r, it can be shipped as such?