Author Topic: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)  (Read 51443 times)

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2015, 08:55:15 PM »
Missed the Tech.. oops. You guys need to be postng in the new split topic.  Thats where my **** picture is.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2015, 09:00:03 PM »
I really dont care what you wanna call it. They are the same stamp and one of them is going bye bye.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2015, 09:28:07 PM »
But....   Isnt what the AK guys are going off of when calling it a Poly Tech?  ... the importer?


Like I said...   Poly wasnt a factory. How do you know what factory the 86 vs 87 came from?  Looks like a completely dif stamp and an easy way out.

Poly Technologies, not a factory? ???  They absolutely are so a factory, based in Beijing  bat1
Quote
a subsidiary of China Poly Group Corporation, is a defense manufacturing company with headquarters in Beijing, China. The company deals with missiles and other military products. The company was founded by the Chinese People's Liberation Army in order to provide competition to China North Industries Corporation (Norinco). Since 2005, Poly Technologies has always been the three best military import and export companies in China.

http://www.poly.com.cn/en/tabid/426/language/zh-CN/Default.aspx

Don't confuse the real Chinese manufacturing with the U.S. importer

Poly Technologies | The Original Chinese AK47 and SKS Rifle Parts
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2015, 10:42:46 PM »
But....   Isnt what the AK guys are going off of when calling it a Poly Tech?  ... the importer?
Ok, the way I have understood this Chinese mess:

Poly Tech is/was made by a Poly Tech factory. They were exported by Poly Tech in China and imported by very few importers, such as K.F.S. and P.T.I. Some importers, not only handled Poly Tech, but also imported Norinco weapons, so it's possible, like Keng's to find both manufactures back in the day.  PolyTech labled weapons also carry their own specific factory numbers. 

WipedOut

Today, the pretty much exclusive importer of the brand name is Poly Technologies | The Original Chinese AK47 and SKS Rifle Parts
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

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Offline running-man

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2015, 10:45:21 PM »
Ok, finally fixed my mistake when I split this topic off the previous PS thread.

I've got 136 images of /016\ / /416\ SKSs.  Of the shots that show arsenal stamps, I've got about 5 that show a clear /416\ through the 17 mil to 24 mil time period.  I have one fairly decent shot of one with a very iffy looking 4 that could easily look like a zero.    The rest are all below the woodline or are too low resolution to be of any real use in this exercise.  I'll blow up the relevant marks and then we can decide wha we think.  I'm strongly leaning /416\.  The AK stuff Mitch produced I hadn't seen before (I'll be the first to say I'm clueless when it comes to AKs)  thumb1
      

Offline firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2015, 10:55:21 PM »
  New to the board but this is a subject that I've wondered about for a long time. Is there a picture of the "Arsenal 016" rifles with the number in an oval, say like the 974 or the 386 in-the-oval arsenal stamps? Example of the 974:


  I've seen references to the 016, but never a pic of one. But my own experiences show the triangle 416, on my Security Forces SKS, and my "M". I've also seen the triangle 416 on a Receiver Cover with scope rail mounted on it.
 
  LC, I can't tell anything from the last pic you posted, (too blurry), but the first one you posted shows the "leg". 
 
  A pic of my "M":



  And of the scope rail I referred to, (Also a blurry pic):  (pulled from the web)



  I don't have my Security Forces next to me to take a better, clearer pic of, but here's an old pic of it:

 

  I can take a better pic if it would help anything. I see this is a split topic. I hope that my post is relevant to the topic and not off-topic.  :-\

  firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2015, 11:05:24 PM »
If GM would stop posting in the other thread.. it wouldn't be confusing.   rofl

Quote
  LC, I can't tell anything from the last pic you posted, (too blurry), but the first one you posted shows the "leg". 

The first one is clear as day and has no leg.  The second clearly shows the vertical line stops before meeting the bottom horizontal line.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Power Surge

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2015, 11:17:45 PM »
If GM would stop posting in the other thread.. it wouldn't be confusing.   rofl

Quote
  LC, I can't tell anything from the last pic you posted, (too blurry), but the first one you posted shows the "leg". 

The first one is clear as day and has no leg.  The second clearly shows the vertical line stops before meeting the bottom horizontal line.

IMO, the first pic you posted could have a leg. The top of the stamp is MUCH deeper in the metal, indicating an uneven strike. The bottom of the stamp is much more shallow and it looks like the leg of the stamp just tickled the receiver.

Also, I see some of these guns with KFS import stamps. I spoke to Kengs a while back about the $50 certificate they offer for any SKS or AK that was imported through PolyTech (the importer, not the manufacturer). They said they have arsenal and production numbers for all those guns. Has anyone ever paid to get the info on their KFS/Polytech SKS to see exactly what's on the certificate?

Offline running-man

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2015, 11:44:10 PM »
GM posting on the old thread was my fault.  I moved them while he was in the process of posting and he got left behind.  I'll send the short bus with padded rubber walls to pick him up and merge his post with this topic so we're all on this page for once and for all.

Anywhoo, I've got 4 examples that I think are pretty indicative of /416\.  The quality isn't the best, but Ive blown them up for better detail:

First is a 17th year gun:


Another 17th year gun only about 3000 down the line (though this is to be expected if there is a broken stamp or something)


Next is an 18th year gun (I could still believe a broken stamp here, but you're getting pretty iffy)


and finally a 24th year gun with two different views of the stamp.  There is absolutely no way the Chinese would be using a broken stamp for 7 full years, especially in a mid production facility like /016\ /  /416\. 



I think adding this to the points FirstChoice made earlier about not seeing "016" anywhere else, but seeing "416" in *lots* of places including on totally different lines of guns like AKs pretty much settles it for me.  The images of /016\ with the small portion below the 0 missing could be explained by numerous things:

  • There really is a /016\ stamp and it is distinctly different than /416\.
  • The /416\ stamp has broken at the tail on the 4 (high stress area there so it would make sense) and the /016\ we see missing the tail are pretty much grouped together until they noticed and/or replaced the stamp.
  • The /016\ stamp is really a /416\ stamp and the lighting and image quality are poor enough that we think we're seeing something we're not.
      

Offline firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2015, 12:12:11 AM »
  The Arsenal Stamp on my "M" is not a traditional "stamp", more like an engraving, or etching. Not quite sure of the technique?  With the clear picture of that stamp, the Chinese would not have added the leg to another form of stamping, out of another mistake. I "think" there is enough evidence to prove the existence of an Arsenal 416. I haven't seen the evidence to prove the 016 in a clear and repeated example. Pictures are hard to decipher. I have yet to hold a 416 in my hands that didn't have the "leg". JMHO

firstchoice 

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2015, 12:13:55 AM »
Or..  There really is a 416 and its distinctly different.   :) 

Hey, Im just making sure you guys cover all bases by playing devils advocate before the 016 gets deleted. No need for pissy comments.

      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2015, 12:17:02 AM »
  The Arsenal Stamp on my "M" is not a traditional "stamp", more like an engraving, or etching. Not quite sure of the technique?  With the clear picture of that stamp, the Chinese would not have added the leg to another form of stamping, out of another mistake. I "think" there is enough evidence to prove the existence of an Arsenal 416. I haven't seen the evidence to prove the 016 in a clear and repeated example. Pictures are hard to decipher. I have yet to hold a 416 in my hands that didn't have the "leg". JMHO

firstchoice

I should have saved more pics throughout the years. There have been plenty without a leg or I wouldn't think twice about it. Is it likely a missing portion of the stamp... yup.   Thats one dumb way to make a 4 imho.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2015, 12:38:44 AM »
  Oh goodness, please don't take my comment the wrong way. Not trying to be "pissy" in any way, shape, or form. Just giving my opinion.  :)

  And yes, I think it was one dumb way to make a 4, as well. Too confusing.

firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2015, 12:50:55 AM »
Not you.. lol . Anything can be forced into law if the other side isnt represented at all. I just like to ask the hard questions that will enviably come up.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2015, 03:55:09 AM »
  Just found a PolyTech AKS-223 5.56x45mm AK-47 (Preban) on a current GB auction. As the pics show, it's an Arsenal /416\ PolyTech rifle.



  It's a current, ongoing GB auction. Not trying to promote it, just using the pics as reference.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=487114693

  Just wanted to throw another /416\ example up for consideration.

  firstchoice

Offline running-man

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2015, 09:03:44 AM »
No worries about posting auctions here.  We don't have asinine 'you must follow the unwritten rules or be banned' policies that sksboards has.

The AK stamps are clearly /416\. The SKS M stamps are clearly /416\ too. It's some of the early ones that are less clear, but I think a case could be made that they are all /416\s. I've been focusing in on the early stamps with the pointy topped 1 that are less clear.  Same pointy topped 1 as in your example.   All good data though.  thumb1
      

Offline firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #36 on: June 04, 2015, 05:22:41 AM »
  Is there an actual picture example of the /416\ listed in the table (below) that LC posted earlier? I don't know the history of these representations, if they're exact replications of the arsenal mark, or just a simple numbered triangle to represent the arsenal? Many of the more complex triangle arsenal markings, well, I wouldn't know which numbers would go in what order? Many are hard to even decipher the numbers, much less the order they go in.

  I think I'll email the Chinese Defense Minister, or whatever his title is, and ask him to send us a detailed list and timeline of arsenal productions.  thankyou1  I mean, it's not like they would say no, eh?  chuckles1   :P



 

  firstchoice

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #37 on: June 04, 2015, 08:44:33 AM »
These charts follow a long and convoluted path.  Some that were 'claimed' to have been seen, are in fact misrepresentations of standard marks.  I know for a fact that /36\ looks so close to /136\ that I personally have confused them together before.  The /416\ below may very well be one of those and the only true /416\ is what we've been talking about in this thread. 

We are going to be cleaning up the charts soon and removing those not verified with photo evidence.  If/when new ones are found, we will simply add them in.  Better to have verified stamps than speculated ones in my book.
      

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2015, 05:27:51 PM »
Better to have verified stamps than speculated ones in my book.

+1

Offline armedhippie

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Re: /016\ vs /416\ (split from Security SKS thread)
« Reply #39 on: June 04, 2015, 10:57:44 PM »

We are going to be cleaning up the charts soon and removing those not verified with photo evidence.  If/when new ones are found, we will simply add them in.  Better to have verified stamps than speculated ones in my book.

 thumb1 Great Idea there RM. We could have a "Photo proven" sticky post, where members could post up their arsenal stamps and found, clear Photos of arsenal stamps. It will take a while but we'll have our own SKS Files 100% Photo backed Arsenal Stamp Chart.

Example of /326\





( This is the 1 I just picked up, just because it has a D stamped rear sight...and  to prove mosinitus hasn't completely taken hold.  rofl

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