SKS-FILES FORUM
General Milsurp Weapons => Milsurp Rifles & Carbines => Japanese Milsurps & Militaria => Topic started by: John Galt on March 16, 2015, 10:02:08 AM
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Hi guys,
I have a chance to buy an Arisaka with an actual bullet lodged in the stock. I know almost nothing of these rifles and never thought about getting one. The guy's father in law had a tag on the rifle stating it was from a jap he killed. No supporting documents. It is not a carbine model and has two holes on top of the receiver. What are the holes for? Like the title says, the mum is intact. Wood is dark,dirty,and very well used. Without pics, could you advise on value or any info? I have read the Wikipedia.
Thanks,
John Galt
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Blicero is crazy knowledgeable on these.... surely he will chime in.
For the bullet to get stuck in the wood, I'm guessing its a pistol round. :o
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I would agree with the pistol round. It is smaller than .30 cal, larger than .22. I didn't look too closely at it since I don't know much about them.
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There is an amazing variety of these, not only types (30, 38, 44, 99, etc.), but even length within the general types. The most common are the Type 99s, which are chambered in 7.7x58mm, in the short rifle length of roughly 25", and the Type 38s, which are chambered in 6.5x50mm, in long rifle configuration. You need a picture of the receiver in the area of the mum to figure out the type. The left side receiver rail will have the manufacturer's and series marks, as well as the serial number. This is a good internet guide with some of the basic info and the Japanese numbers and characters:
Markings on Japanese Arisaka Rifles and Bayonets of World War II (http://oldmilitarymarkings.com/japanese_markings.html)
The holes are just over-pressure relief vents. Serial numbers (last 3 numbers of the receiver SN) are found in quite a few places on the rifles: barrel bands, bolt and often various bolt pieces (including firing pin, safety), etc. Items that affect value besides the mum and bore/stock condition are, the presence of the receiver cover, anti-aircraft rear sight "wings", monopod, and matching numbers (fairly unusual). Ammo for the Japanese rifles is expensive and a bit hard to locate on a regular basis. The prices can be quite low for the common T99 and T38 rifles. As far as the note tag, I'd try to get it if you buy the rifle but I wouldn't pay extra for it or the rifle on that basis alone. That and the bullet are certainly potentially unique features.
Blicero can correct or add.
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Dang... I didn't know Phos was a Jap scholar also!
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Dang... I didn't know Phos was a Jap scholar also!
We have a very large pool of talent and knowledge here, that's what keeps me hanging around here with you guys!
Now there is the mystery about the bullet lodged in the stock. Smaller than .30 cal but larger than .22?! To my knowledge Allied forces of the WWII era had no calibers fitting in that size range that would have seen common day-to-day use in the field. Well..with the exception of some Officer's model pistols.
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Dang... I didn't know Phos was a Jap scholar also!
We have a very large pool of talent and knowledge here, that's what keeps me hanging around here with you guys!
Now there is the mystery about the bullet lodged in the stock. Smaller than .30 cal but larger than .22?! To my knowledge Allied forces of the WWII era had no calibers fitting in that size range that would have seen common day-to-day use in the field. Well..with the exception of some Officer's model pistols.
.45 acp and .38 was common for the U.S., 8MM Nambu was a common Japanese caliber, the Japanese officers also favored German pistols usually in .25 acp and .32 acp, officers could purchase their own sidearm in officer clubs if they chose to.
Is it a bullet, or chunk of shrapnel?
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Dang... I didn't know Phos was a Jap scholar also!
We have a very large pool of talent and knowledge here, that's what keeps me hanging around here with you guys!
Now there is the mystery about the bullet lodged in the stock. Smaller than .30 cal but larger than .22?! To my knowledge Allied forces of the WWII era had no calibers fitting in that size range that would have seen common day-to-day use in the field. Well..with the exception of some Officer's model pistols.
.45 acp and .38 was common for the U.S., 8MM Nambu was a common Japanese caliber, the Japanese officers also favored German pistols usually in .25 acp and .32 acp, officers could purchase their own sidearm in officer clubs if they chose to.
Is it a bullet, or chunk of shrapnel?
That's what I was wondering. If it's definitely a bullet (I have no reason to doubt John's assessment) instead of shrapnel, did the Allies have something fitting in that size range that would have been used against the Japanese hence the small caliber bullet being lodged in the stock.
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Friendly fire or a captured weapon used against jap.
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A .30 carbine bullet doesn't have a lot of energy after a few hundred yards and is fairly small at 110gr. Rifle bullets could have ricocheted and scrubbed some energy before striking and embedding in the stock. Unless it's been stored in the desert since being brought back from Japan, I would expect some signs of oxidation of the bullet after 70 years. For example, greenish verdigris if it's copper jacketed, possibly some rough lead oxide if it's just lead portions of the bullet remaining or visible, or rusty red if it's shrapnel.
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Good points Phosphorus, and "friendly fire" is a definite possiblilty Loose}{Cannon.
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Or it's a bullet with a missing jacket, partial or part of a ricochet, or friendly fire :o
Off the top of my head, the Marines had Ma Deuce, M1 Garand, M1941 Johnson, M1 Carbine and M3's, Thompsons on Iwo Jima and Okinawa. The larger machine guns were ..30-06 or .50. So thats .30-06, .30 Carbine and .45 acp .50 BMG. I'm sure M1903's were used earlier, but still -06. I thought of the Pederson device, but thats still a .30 caliber, and WWI. Side arms were S&W .38 revolvers and .45 acp 1911s.
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So since it's possibly a bring-back then it may well have been a bullet from another Japanese weapon...friendly fire.
"Friendly fire...isn't".
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"Friendly fire...isn't".
Sure, that term coming from a language where we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway...........go figure rofl
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"Friendly fire...isn't".
Sure, that term coming from a language where we drive on a parkway and park in a driveway...........go figure rofl
rofl
Carl I'm still trying to figure out another one I heard several years ago...why did Kamikazi pilots wear a safety helmet?!
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Hey guys,
What is visible in the stock appears to be the round back side of a bullet. If it was a boat tail, maybe the wood swallowed it some to make it look smaller? What I could see was nearly perfectly round, had what appeared to have a copper jacket, and had a discolored (oxidized), perfectly round center section. I didn't really look at it that closely as my focus was on the sks. Also, I don't know that much about any version of the Arisaka. If I ever get to see this rifle again, I will look more closely at it and snap some pics if he allows.
On a side note, I talked to the guy today and he said he found a wooden sks stock. I told him that if the numbers on it matched the 8 mil /26\ with the jungle stock, I would be interested.
Thanks for all of the info and help!
John Galt
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Good luck with it John!
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The holes are gas vents in case of cartridge failures and head splits.
If there are two holes, you're likely looking at a type 38 in 6.5.
Value depends on condition, the state of the flower & matching numbers. A bullet in the stock is pretty neat but damage is damage. I'm guessing $350 max value from what you describe as long as the stock isn't chopped or refinished.
Look for naval anchors on the receiver bridge or by the serial, or an original rope or leather sling (with kanji) attached to it. Either of those add a good chunk of value.
Also look for the manufacturer- denoted by the symbol next to the serial. It's a long shot but if you find it's a Jinsen or Mukden make, then it's a very desirable piece.
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I talked to the guy yesterday. He said that he thinks he found the bayonet in his father in law's stuff. Father in law died a year or so ago and was a gun shop owner apparently.
The mum looked like it was in great shape with no attempt to damage it ever made. It did have a leather sling on it that looked original but I don't know. The stock looks like it lost every fight it was in, no refinish there and dont remember the stock being chopped It does have a split on the lower buttstock that seems like a lot of the have. Also, it did have 2 holes.
I asked him to put a value on it for me as I am interested in it.
Thanks Blicero,
John Galt
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The split in the butt is a dovetail joint, they're designed that way. The bayonet is a bonus, worth $75-150 depending on condition and maker. Have you got receiver and full length rifle pics yet?
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I have not been back to take pics yet...but I'm in negotiations with him. Where there bring back papers" in WWII?
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Yes there were bringback papers back then.
Usually an Arisaka, with a mum is considered a bringback, after the war the mums were technically supposed to be defaced either by U.S. doctrine or Japanese. Some however didn't get done, which is why they are sought after and command a higher price than a defaced rifle.
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I have not been back to take pics yet...but I'm in negotiations with him. Where there bring back papers" in WWII?
Yes. For example, AG USFET Form No 33. Many firearms came back without papers as well, but without the forms, I personally wouldn't pay any extra.