Why are the Romy's so inclined to be mis-matched?

[firstchoice]

  I know there are exceptions to the rule, but it seems to me that amongst the many varieties of SKS, the Romanian SKS seems to be the one that's least likely to be in an "as-issued" condition. Was it the way that the arsenals did their inspections, or more to do with some of the Cold War demilitarization rules of making weapons "non-operable?

  Many "non-matching" that I've seen certainly did not meet the "worn out" threshhold for needing parts replaced. Parts such as Receiver Covers, Bolt Carriers, Bolt Assemblies, etc.  Seriously, when did you last see a bolt carrier worn out to the degree that it needed replacement? Most all those parts will outlast a couple of "operators". Think about the Sino-Banian's...years of heavy use, battle use, out in the elements,...but still using the original SN'd parts, in most cases.

  I don't know how they handled their maintenance "program" on their weapons. Did they have the soldiers strip the weapons down, throw all the parts in a pile, clean the parts and then everyone reaches in and grabs the next piece that they need for reassembly? (Regardless of SN) You got what you got? The SN on the receiver was all they seemed to be concerned with, to keep thier
records. 

  All of my words are simply questions, guesses and conjecture. I've just wondered why it is that one of the nicest, quality made Simonov reserve arsenals weren't kept in a more military-order. Yugos had their Log Books and history. Anyone have a theory, or even better, the real story?   

  firstchoice                                                                               

[Loose}{Cannon]

I chalk it up to the fact their rearsenal methods were not like say russia or china in that they dont seem to have scrubbed, reblued, and forcematched.

[Worm]

All good questions.

Heavily used perhaps? No way to be sure. I did once hear that some of the Romanians looked to have been reblued. Mine looks to have been, and it has not been altered since import. Not sure

I can however mention that many Sino/Albanians DO have mismatched metal. The earlier imports from Albania, at least the ones that I got to sort through, were full of mismatchers. I own one that is made up of 4 different guns, and yep, the bolt and carrier mismatched too.

Bolt faces do crack, never seen a failed carrier but you never know. Most SKS's eeem to live to tell the tale, they are tough, but like any gun, they do need maintenance, especially with such heavy use.

[Stoned_Oli]

Also weird, at least on mine, other than the stock all non-matching parts seem to be within a 1300 or so range of the same serial block, IIRC.

ETA: OK, I'm not one to balk at the chance to <s>fondle</s> dig out a few to reach one for a pic...



Mag and trigger group match... the bucket theory seems to be weakened by the bolt and the receiver cover having the same number...
The bluing is VERY nice though , maybe evidence of being reblued at some point.

[Justin Hell]

It could be as simple as when any part malfunctioned, the gun was disassembled, good parts tossed in crates of good parts...bad parts discarded, and when the need arose, they were slapped back together.  By the same token, many of the imports could have been assembled from crates of good leftover parts.  Just a WAG.

[firstchoice]

  They were just lazy in their methods?                             

  I'm basing some of my questions off of the Romy that I own. It's a very nice piece with great bluing, no significant wear or damage. Used, but definitely not a high use rifle.
 
  My Romy is RA 1898-1960.
  My Bolt Carrier # is: RB 4374
  My Receiver Cover # is: RB 4438
 
  Receiver, Trigger Group, and Magazine match. My Bolt Carrier and Receiver Cover DON'T match.

  I wish I had the rifle here in front of me to take a couple pics of to explain what I mean. There are no signs of extreme wear or catastrophic failure that would indicate a need to replace parts. And we've all seen all the wear that Chinese Type 56's have endured without switching out non-matching parts. It's almost like, if I had to guess, (which I'm doing, btw ), the armorers had to make sure they had job security and switched out parts that could have/would have lasted past their lifetimes.

  Just out of curiousity, didn't their armories have spare parts w/o SN's, to be installed on rifles as replacement parts? And I'm asking about all Countries here. Surely, they made spare parts for repairs? I know AIM sold a lot of Albanian SKS spare parts for a time, maybe still do. Still not understanding why the various part numbers ended up all over the rifles. No force matching, no electro-pencil SN's. Just kinda odd.

  I'm curious. Has anyone actually reached out to Norinco or any Chinese government entity and asked the obvious questions? Laid it out on the line, as a Collectors POV? Heck, if Keng's is willing to give out that little bit of info on the origin of the Polytech AK's to make a buck, (done on their own ambition), why not try to get a conversation started with the Chinese about these "great Chinese firearms" that so many crazy American Capitalists love to spend their money on? How 'bout it Travis? How's your Manderin? 

firstchoice

[Stoned_Oli]

And both of ours are 1960s... maybe they just swapped them between available last year rifles? Odd yours also stays relatively close, serial block wise, and that the matching parts are (relatively speaking) the harder ones to remove...

[Worm]

You have to remember also, China had alot more guns than Romania did.

Romania has what, 50,000 approx? China had millions, and many were made just for export here or saw very little use.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say the worn Chinese ones dont have mismatched parts... many of them do, just as much as the Romanians

[Worm]

I really do think these were well worn, and then reblued for export to America.

[Stoned_Oli]

I really do think these were well worn, and then reblued for export to America.

The matching parts on mine show no signs of wear, scratching, or repair. They also seem to be exactly the same font as the receiver...

[Worm]

I havent said anything about renumbering, or a new font.

My Romanian's metal is all matching also, and the blueing is in excellent shape. But, it's carrier has a well worn patina.

You can tell quite easily that the blueing on the blued parts does not match the carrier's patina. Also, its stock is mismatched and well used, as are many.

The gun has been well used, but it has been reblued. A very nice, dark reblue, but I'm very sure it has been. I got it in cosmo, with the importers tag and everything. It was not done here.

[firstchoice]

  It's the Receiver Cover on so many Romy's being mis-matched, along with the Bolt and Bolt Carrier. What is it on the SKS that could wear out the Receiver Cover? And, I could buy the Bolt cracking, on a small number of them. But why replace the Bolt Carrier?

  Now, I have seen some very worn SKS' and could see just about everything being replaced in a rearsenal situation. But I still come back to the "spare parts" question. They had to have some, surely. But I've yet to see any Romy's with blank, force matched, or electro-penciled replacement parts. Just parts from other rifles. What I'd love to find is the rifle with receiver SN such-n-such and another rifle with the Bolt and Bolt carrier with the same SN! But no such luck yet. I was hoping that "Romanian Serial # Quest" (on another site) would show up some anomaly like that. But the OP gave up on the data and it was never compiled.

  firstchoice

[Worm]

For example on my Sino/Albanian..

Receiver: 29452X
Magazine: 29452X
Trigger: 22355X
Carrier: E939X
Bolt: E939X
Receiver Cover: E939X
Stock, Albanian cut down spiker with blade cut.

4 different guns.. about 25% blueing

How could the receiver cover need replacing? Idk, but there was obviously a good enough reason for it for it to be so common not just on Romanians, but Sino/Albanians and even on some IC guns.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Where did you learn my first name?      Thats classified information.   



Kinda sounds like wasted time and effort to me...  Chinese are not talking from what I understand. 

The serials of mismatched Romanians being similar and or close in numbee is simple.  New rifles with sequencing serials are sent to a location where they are kept in an armory. Units even have their own armorys. Said guns are assigned to soldiers whom receive them from the armory for training or deployment. Said guns are always returned to the armory after use. You dont take the gun off base to drink at the bar with or to show mamma.  Reassigned to a dif unit or location, the gun stays with its assigned armory.  Said guns are assigned to soliers as they come and go from the unit the armory supports.  Said guns will always be mingling with their serial similar brothers and sisters at the armory until they are sent elsewhere, replaced etc.

Example:
When I was in the Marines (2nd combat engineer battalion) we had our own battalion armory. When I arrived I was issued specific serisl number A2, m249 etc.  These were in service at thst armory for years before I showed up. In late 1997 the A2s went bye bye when we received brsnd new M4s thst were all sequential.  Those M4s are likely still there to this day being houeed and maintained by that one arsenal

[Greasemonkey]

I think its luck of the draw.  Romania was a small, poor communist nation. They had low production of many wespons, most likely, they rebuilt worn rifles over and over. Not having many to begin with, increases the likely hood of mismatched parts when rebuilt, they might strip one rifle to fix five rifles. The quanity wasn't there to choose from like China. Look at all the Romanian capture/refurb Mausers, not many match, same with M44 Mosins. Just another though, maybe they didn't give two squirts about the numbers, the numbers don't effect function, maybe they were more function an and total inventory based. Them numbers weren't gonna win the Cold War, thats the guy weilding the rifles job. Numbers are over rated anyway.

In my 4 Romanian examples, its all over the place with numbers and condition.  My 1957 is almost perfect, every number matches, while another looks rode hard and put up wet, it has a mismatched number or two, and one that I would say is pretty decent, but serial suffixs cover all 4 years of.production. And then one that again, ain't in horrible.shape, has couple of numbers match, but packs a Yugoslavian bolt.

[firstchoice]

  I imagine that Nicolae Ceaușescu kept the lid on any extra funds for anything extra. He didn't get into power until mid-60's, I think it was. But the Romy SKS's were already there and about ready for parts to start failing about then. Might have had something to do with it?

  Been a great discussion this morning! Thanks for all the input and thought. Now, gotta go see the doctor. See y'all later!

  firstchoice 

[running-man]

The serials of mismatched Romanians being similar and or close in numbee is simple.  New rifles with sequencing serials are sent to a location where they are kept in an armory. Units even have their own armorys. Said guns are assigned to soldiers whom receive them from the armory for training or deployment. Said guns are always returned to the armory after use. You dont take the gun off base to drink at the bar with or to show mamma.  Reassigned to a dif unit or location, the gun stays with its assigned armory.  Said guns are assigned to soliers as they come and go from the unit the armory supports.  Said guns will always be mingling with their serial similar brothers and sisters at the armory until they are sent elsewhere, replaced etc.

This is what I was thinking as well.  Maybe not as much from an 'armory' standpoint (I have no idea if they ran the military the same way ours does now in 1960-70's communist Romania) but more along the lines of parts getting mixed up when soldiers field stripped and cleaned their rifles.  I can easily see a group of soldiers cleaning their firearms on a slow day and receiver covers, bolt carriers, magazines, trigger groups getting swapped w/o the soldier even thinking twice about it.  Bolt swapping gives me pause, but we've seen it enough in Sino-Banians that maybe they just didn't give a damn with those too.  This has long been my going hypothesis as to why the Sino-Banians have so many mismatched parts.  One quick glance at the 'Early Chinese Tracking Thread' on the Chinese Serial Data Board shows that there are far fewer all matching guns and still fewer all-metal matching guns than there are mixmasters. 

Maybe it's like Carl says and they just didn't care about keeping numbers matching on their tools; the tool was going to function fine regardless of what parts made it up. 

I will say this, from my experience the wood on Romys is notoriously bad.  Is that a function of the wood type, the finish, or perhaps simply a product of the type and quality of the refurbishment facilities?  I certainly don't have any of the answers, but this thread is nice to get people thinking as to the whys of certain things...

[Loose}{Cannon]

Oh, I'm sure even the Neanderthal Romanians even had provisions and protocols for storing and maintaining a units rifles when not engaged in battle. 

Either by armory, parts washers when coming out of the field, or Bobby swapping goods with Jonny ae a memento.  I dont think they cared to much.

[Worm]

RM, I do believe the wood is the problem. Beech wood.

Even on the Sino/Albanians with Albanian cut down beech wood stocks (Not the odd shape Chinese replacements that look new). Many are very beaten, cracked, and/or just very dark and brittle compared to most of the catalpa or birch. (what ive observed at least, though there are probably exceptions)

Beech wood also has ZERO rot resistent properties, meaning if they are not finished with a durable weather resistent finish (they werent), then they were very susceptible to weather damage.

[Greasemonkey]

Somthing else to consider, with Romania adopting the Ak in the very early 60's, the Pistol Mitralieră model 1963, then the mdl.65. Maybe once they had enough Ak inventory, they just mass refurbed the SKSs and stored them away. Just enough refurb to use as a reserve or backline weapons if needed, it's cheaper and easier to fix just whats worn or broke. Function was all that was required. Also, think they had stocks of Mosins and Mausers as well, while they were behind most nations, but with the advent of the Ak, they were kinda able to even out the small arms race at the time. They, like on most of their refurb ventures might have deemed scrubbing serials and restamping a waste of labor and time.