Author Topic: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)  (Read 8392 times)

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Offline Worm

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IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« on: February 19, 2019, 08:40:53 PM »
 fart1
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 01:48:39 PM by Worm »

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2019, 10:02:06 PM »
oooh...    Love the video evidence.    thumb1

Perhaps a merger of the two IC thread OPs......  I see good info on the original thats not covered in this one. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2019, 10:07:40 PM »
oooh...    Love the video evidence.    thumb1

Perhaps a merger of the two IC thread OPs......  I see good info on the original thats not covered in this one.

Good idea, definitely are some extras in the original post

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2019, 10:16:15 PM »
I don't remember seeing anything other then one type of laminated stock on these rifles, and they are unmistakably Russian stocks.  I'm also reminded of M08s stock that shows a clear Russian refurb stamp.  Im also unsure of the PLOs ability to refurb the guns to mint condition like observed in the examples found with the norinco addition to the stamp.  Also, CAI was importing from all over the world and the norinco marked guns are clearly from a different batch all together.   RM may be able to help, but I believe the fed regulations of adding the maker/origin of the rifle to the import stamp was added at some point in time after the known 2 early types seen in this post.  Think about the identical stamps found on Romanians with the addition of the 'Cugir' text.   
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2019, 10:23:17 PM »
I've never held a mystery laminate personally, but I've been told that they have much thinner stocks, no marks & I have seen pics. There's always the possibility that some were replaced with russian laminate stocks later on. They could all be Russian though, who knows.

Carbine's Arabic marked one has the Norinco stamp, so I don't think they're from a different batch..

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2019, 10:33:19 PM »
Could be that they started to apply the maker to the stamp at the tail end of the second IC batch and then received the new ones from china shortly after and thus having the same stamp.   

I would be in the same camp and agree if it were not that ALL new condition ICs have the norinco stamp from what I have seen. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 10:37:39 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline running-man

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2019, 11:37:19 PM »
Good stuff Worm, lots to think over for certain. 

I think I'm with LC on the stocks though.  The only other laminates I know of (that aren't NK or EG stocks...which these clearly aren't) are the original Chinese laminates on the 11 mil /26\s that are far different than your run of the mill Russian laminate.  It would be nice to see a full set of views of one of the thinner wrist stocks and see what exactly is different and whether defining features like the solid block behind the bayo slot and the second crossbolt are indeed present on it.   

I wonder if it could be that the PLO took used Russian stocks, sanded them to within an inch of their life thinning out the wrist and removing the S/N, slapped some heavy red varnish on them haphazardly and then utilized them.  This would explain the mods to the bayo slots too as if they didn't know what style of gun it was going to go back on to they would have performed the mod on a jig where they could zip through them as quickly as possible. 

Nice work all in all!  thumb1
      

Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2019, 11:45:04 PM »
Could be that they started to apply the maker to the stamp at the tail end of the second IC batch and then received the new ones from china shortly after and thus having the same stamp.   

I would be in the same camp and agree if it were not that ALL new condition ICs have the norinco stamp from what I have seen.

Good points

Good stuff Worm, lots to think over for certain. 

I think I'm with LC on the stocks though.  The only other laminates I know of (that aren't NK or EG stocks...which these clearly aren't) are the original Chinese laminates on the 11 mil /26\s that are far different than your run of the mill Russian laminate.  It would be nice to see a full set of views of one of the thinner wrist stocks and see what exactly is different and whether defining features like the solid block behind the bayo slot and the second crossbolt are indeed present on it.   

I wonder if it could be that the PLO took used Russian stocks, sanded them to within an inch of their life thinning out the wrist and removing the S/N, slapped some heavy red varnish on them haphazardly and then utilized them.  This would explain the mods to the bayo slots too as if they didn't know what style of gun it was going to go back on to they would have performed the mod on a jig where they could zip through them as quickly as possible. 

Nice work all in all!  thumb1

It would be good to compare them ourselves. It would be great if I had one in front of my face right now but the only ones for sale currently are way out of my price range.

I’ll see if I can dig up pics of the comparison. & Thanks!

Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2019, 11:54:57 PM »
Also, not sure why but I wasn't able to post the youtube links without them completely blanking out after posting, so I had to add a character to them for them to post. Are vids not allowed on here?

Offline running-man

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2019, 11:56:27 PM »
Looks like the video embedder is acting up for some reason.  LC may be able to troubleshoot it and get it working again as he set it up.  thumb1
      

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2019, 12:22:09 AM »
Looks like the video embedder is acting up for some reason.  LC may be able to troubleshoot it and get it working again as he set it up.  thumb1

 thumb1

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2019, 09:04:01 AM »
I think the vid embedder needs updating.   
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline carls sks

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2019, 09:17:55 AM »
good read, enjoyed the pics too. thanks for taking the time Worm, well done.  thumb1
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Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2019, 11:19:48 AM »
I think the vid embedder needs updating.

 thumb1

good read, enjoyed the pics too. thanks for taking the time Worm, well done.  thumb1

Thanks  ;)

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2019, 01:40:11 AM »
Vids work now.   thankyou1
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2019, 02:42:29 AM »
Would it be possible that the laminates that are thinner could be Russian replacements intended for use with 49s at refurb?

With regard the the 9m /26\s those were at the very end of the blade bayonet in Chinese production...by 9.1m(ish) they were spikes. Could it be that they got some stocks along with the original aid that were set up, perhaps experimentally by the Chinese...during the transition that could accomodate both?  The Chinese could have been sitting on the laminates as well, forwarded to them along with the Russian parts they started with, and for whatever reason, opted not to use them.  The laminates would seem like a viable candidate to be set up for both blade and spike, and remain strong.

This initial cache of parts, then would be spread out over the years with repairs as needed. I suspect they had as much fun getting various stocks to fit a particular SKS as we do here...even with the crossbolt in the proper place. This could further shuffle up the mix of stocks sent by China.  This would make a little sense out of the out of place stocks here and there. 

Heck, perhaps the initial aid partially was the clean up of the blade/spike transition? Just a WAG...seems like it might fit the timeframe. :)


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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2019, 05:40:29 AM »
I've got a 12M series /26\ with all the IC hall marks, CAI import, blued bolt, dual cut laminate. It's numbers matching and in great condition. PAX
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Offline Stoned_Oli

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2019, 09:32:36 AM »
The barrel stamped & usually aligned,

  ‘ CAI.ST.A.VT
SKS 7.62 CHINA ‘

(Note the primary difference; “A” instead of “ALB”) imports I am no longer convinced were from any Arab nation as I have never seen one with distinct enough Arabic features. Completely different batch of well used guns, but could be mistaken for the other batch due to import mark similarity. Maybe they are from the Middle East, there’s no telling with most well used SKS’s, but nothing has given me any striking inclination that they are. I’d be more than willing to change my mind if presented with photo evidence to suggest otherwise. I have, however, observed enough of these to definitely believe they were from a conflict region though, as heavy use is usually apparent.

Incorrect import mark:




My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.








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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2019, 01:37:22 PM »
Gonna show my ignorance here.

Does IC mean Israeli Capture?
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Offline Worm

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Re: IC Revisited (Warning: Lengthy post!)
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2019, 04:13:08 PM »
Vids work now.   thankyou1

Awesome

My "G"7544 has the "ST A." import mark and the sand caked between the stock and action, with other signs of being at least carried in a sandy environment.

Is that a G letter series? just more evidence that perhaps we were right about these back in the day, that they are ICs. I forgot how many of these were caked in sand inside the stock just as the "ALBs" are commonly found. My old (and very well worn) 8 mill with that import mark also had sand when i got it. If that's a letter series, and LC's is a V letter series with the same import mark, and my /666\ "ALB" has a V letter series trigger.. that seems like pretty compelling evidence that some letter series did make their way over there.. The ST."A" mark seems to be far less common than the typical ST."ALB" mark. Probably just a much smaller batch and were sorted differently.

Gonna show my ignorance here.

Does IC mean Israeli Capture?

Yes. After the invasion of Lebanon in 82', Israel captured millions of $ worth of small arms from (primarily) the Palestinians. They started sorting & selling these abroad to militaries & commercial markets, and shortly after we started receiving these SKSs among a few other types of firearms that very obviously came out of the Middle East.

Would it be possible that the laminates that are thinner could be Russian replacements intended for use with 49s at refurb?

With regard the the 9m /26\s those were at the very end of the blade bayonet in Chinese production...by 9.1m(ish) they were spikes. Could it be that they got some stocks along with the original aid that were set up, perhaps experimentally by the Chinese...during the transition that could accomodate both?  The Chinese could have been sitting on the laminates as well, forwarded to them along with the Russian parts they started with, and for whatever reason, opted not to use them.  The laminates would seem like a viable candidate to be set up for both blade and spike, and remain strong.

This initial cache of parts, then would be spread out over the years with repairs as needed. I suspect they had as much fun getting various stocks to fit a particular SKS as we do here...even with the crossbolt in the proper place. This could further shuffle up the mix of stocks sent by China.  This would make a little sense out of the out of place stocks here and there. 

Heck, perhaps the initial aid partially was the clean up of the blade/spike transition? Just a WAG...seems like it might fit the timeframe. :)

Definitely possibilities. I just received a non-refurb Letter Series Russian today with a laminate stock, and that sucker is THIN.. thinner than the 50' refurb Russian laminate stock that I used to have. I think perhaps I was off base with the laminate stock thing, they probably are just Russian stocks.

Whether they were assembled as such prior to the Middle East or if the Middle Easterners did the bluing/laminate stock combo is still up for debate imo, though. The couple Norinco marked blued/laminate examples are in good shape, no doubt, but so are plenty of non-Norinco marked ones with the blued carriers. No different.. I think the full rebluing just made them look extra-unissued and if they didn't see much action afterwards, then they're obviously gonna look pretty clean. I mean, they needed replacement stocks.. so I'm confident they saw action prior to that configuration. Just about every example in its stock configuration with its bolt "in the white" is in worse shape than the blued ones. Not in all cases, but in most based on the pics I've collected. Just screams refurb to me.

Because of Carbine's arabic marked example w/ the "Norinco" mark, I'm still leaning towards the blued/lamies being middle east refurbs, not some random Chinese configuration. But without more evidence, we'll likely never know for sure.