Original Stock, or Not? 16mil /016\

[martin08]

Picked up a fairly early version of the pinned barrel, 1971 manufacture.  It appears as new, unfired, bolt and gas system still full of cosmoline.  None of the parts look scrubbed and renumbered.

It's a pinned barrel, but the stock has the relief cut for the short lug threaded barrel, and the crossbolt does not look shaved or re-positioned.

So, were there still threaded barrel stock blanks floating around in 1971 that still needed to be used up?   Or was this one rebuilt/restocked at a later date?  What say you?

Really nice looking gun, enjoy, and thanks for looking.

[Phosphorus32]

I wouldn’t be shocked if this was original, especially in the early 1970’s.

Regardless, she’s a beauty 

[carls sks]

nice find, beautiful!  ------------------> so jealous!

[Greasemonkey]

M08... I can't say one way or the other...because I have the same type deal, just with a slightly different twist. Same /016\ factory, 2million later in serial, mine is 18million, and it is Public Security, the stock is sterile, it is fit exceptionally well with no visible modifications to the crossbolt, the only exception is, the lug gap is rather large.. I have always been told it was replaced by bubba here in the states.. now I kinda wonder.

If it was replaced here...someone did one heck of a fitting job, either way, it stays. 




One other difference...it's a bottom hung sling, not the typical side mount. Hand guard matches type of wood and finish, like it was installed together. Note: no serial on the stock.

[martin08]

Hmmm.  Good example, GM.  I'm not sure that a stateside bubba would have either the resources or talent.

For those of us who have tried to swap stocks from a threaded  to  pinned actions, we know that crossbolt placement will not allow a fit - not enough clearance.

So a stock which has the relief for a threaded barrel lug would need to have the crossbolt installed about 1/8" forward to work on a pinned action.  I would think that a procedure like this would be done only at arsenal level.

[Greasemonkey]

So... It could be the factory stock..Neat... it is odd that it has the bottom slung sling hanger vs. the later style side mount. So there is a possiblity of more of these. 

Wonder if there was excess stocks made, then retro fitted to suit the current needs?

[martin08]

Something just as interesting as the early pinned barreled gun and stock - the sling is a rarely seen canvas web with the roller buckle keepers for the leather tabs.

Mosinnagant.net identifies them as early 1960s manufacture for the Type-56 SKS.  But the Type-56, also shown in the ink stamp on the sling, could equally refer to the AK-47.

Anyway, these don't show up often.  So, a few pics.

[Boris Badinov]

It's a very difficult determination. As arguments can be made for either pov.

From what I can tell, 16th year appears to be the first known year of production at /416\.
So they very easily could've been working from leftover 'stock'piles from /26\ which was not producing the type 56 in that year.

But, i seem to recall the side mount swivels were fairly uncommon after the mid 60's. Is the side mounted rear swivel standard for on /416\ carbines from that year?

Either way, it's a great looking carbine. And my guess is that, at the very least, it left China in virtually the same condition as you found it. Nice catch.

[martin08]

You made me pop the trigger group so that I could see the bottom of the arsenal stamp.

I suppose that it is /416\ and not /016\.




On the side vs bottom sling swivel, the stock would have had to come from spares which were inletted before mid-1965.  The fact that we see both a bottom and side swivel in this thread, and both inletted for a threaded barrel, indicates that spares could indeed have come from the /26\ factory.

[Greasemonkey]

Yeah.. /016\..../416\  whos counting..... it's /?16\ 



I found this yesterday while putting it away, the area around the mag liner looks slightly more hogged out than usual.  Now before one blames aftermarket magazine usage because of the hoopty magazine release....it never happened, the previous owner didn't use duckbills or other garbage. Me, being a lazy and cheap bastard, I swapped the factory magazine release on to something more important to make it whole and normal again...........a Romanian.



And, it's the only SKS I have that doesn't have the trigger group pressure spring in the stock. the hole is there, but no spring. When assembled, nothing moves, just the latch locks it together, and it is a royal P.I.A. to get it to latch..........like flip the rifle upside down, place on floor and stomp it with my size 14 boot P.I.A.

[running-man]

Dang it GM, we've been through this one before, don't you remember the pain?  It's /416\. Not /016\, not /?16\; /416\!   

I've got images of a /416\ paratrooper with the arsenal stamp the right of the S/N, with an unfortunately non-original stock.  Only the single example unfortunately, so I don't put a ton of stock into it, but here it is.  It's clear to me that it's a short lugged gun:






So the next set we have proof of is the year 16's that Boris calls out.  Here is the earliest I have in the series, 1604xxx, clearly a pressed and pinned lug.  I think the stock looks pretty similar to M08's but it's not terribly clear:





Here's 1625xxx, again similar but much clearer on the excess space given to the lug cutout:





And a big jump to 1716xxx but still similar:




By 1725xxx I'm no longer seeing odd cuts on the stock at the barrel lug:





And 1806xxx looks much like the late 17's:





The year 20's guns look very similar to the year 18's except that the sling swivel was switched from the side to the bottom.

And to round things out here is a nifty '89' prefixed /416\. We know that /416\ made guns through SKS M's so it's not inconceivable that this is a true 1989 built std. type 56.  Note the blank stock and scrubbed everything else:






To be honest, after looking at all the photos I think the cuts I show could be attributed to simple variances in manufacture. 

[Greasemonkey]

The fact that we see both a bottom and side swivel in this thread, and both inletted for a threaded barrel, indicates that spares could indeed have come from the /26\ factory.

It might be the million dollar question  Was China at that time using the type yellow finish that mine has.... Usually that finish is more commonly seen on the later type rifles, like later commercial SKSs, MAK90s and others, while most from the late 60's-early 70's typically would have the more orangeish/reddish tinted look like yours has on it.

Or.... Were they just piles of naked stock blanks that were fitted and finished at a much later date and time based on current needs.   




RM..... I've been trying to suppress traumatic events    it's that Post Traumatic Simonov Karbine Disorder....

[martin08]

To be honest, after looking at all the photos I think the cuts I show could be attributed to simple variances in manufacture. 

Oh, you're no fun RM!  You were supposed to say that they ran out of lug-relieved stocks in the 17mil range.

 

[Boris Badinov]

I know that the lugged receivers are a near impossible fit in the stocks for pinned-barrel receivers without modification to the fit. (Right?)

But does this apply inversely? Will pinned barrel receivers drop in to the lug-barrel stocks and generally be loose?

Does this rifle's stock have any  indications of modifications to the inletting or crossbolt (other than the gap at the barrel base)?

[Justin Hell]

I have a sneaking suspicion that the stocks were not made at the same factory the guns were made....due to the triangle arsenal stamps found on some that never match the factory the rest of the gun was made at. It would seem to make sense to not transport logs all over China. Usually mills are located near to the forests here, you can fit a lot more board feet on a truck once processed vs. logs...  Our (formerly) logging community sports a mill at the confluence of two major rivers on one side of town, and also (formerly) a pulp mill for paper products on the other side, and down river of town.  I would speculate you could fit three truckloads worth of logs into one truck of finished stocks.

One might think /26\ made their own stocks, and based on the size and scale of that factory...they might have, although my oil finish /26\ 65 has the non matching /\ stamp.  You can generally locate replacement unserialed stocks of most any variety...usually in the orangeish range of color....the blade variety are far less common, short lugs are a pain to find...but they are out there. Try finding an unserialed long lug spiker sometime! I have only seen one, on my 64. So to me it seems as if stocks were made both for the current Chinese scheme and possibly older versions were made for refurbishment purposes....many years after those types of stocks were eliminated due to Chinese 'improvements' to the design.

It makes you wonder though, why so many years after the M21, that /26\ spat out inverted take down levers/stocks....possibly using up old stockpiled stock....stock? (and levers). Meanwhile all the other factories at the time were using the normal stocks/levers. Or perhaps in the lull at /26\ in the early 70s...they sat on M21 parts until production began again? I seem to recall that by 80 they were back to normal stocks/levers...perhaps as surplus was used up, they reverted back to normal...or at least what all the other factories were making at the time.

Occasionally you will find unfinished stocks, lacking all hardware for sale. Which leads me to think that until final assembly...they were just stored until needed. GM's extra hogged stock is a first to me though...perhaps there was some additional work done during fitment of an almost right stock that was on hand.

I wonder if the Chinese knew about Occam's Razor? They sure kept things interesting for future generations to reverse engineer their logic. 

Nice carbine Martin08!  I trust a cleaning rod will grace it's presence soon?
I dig the dog collar Chinese sling. Does it have the TYPE 56 in the stamp or could these be remnant T53 slings? They seem a little cumbersome, especially for a side swiveled stock. Swivel placement is another thing that irks me...it seems like there might have been a reason to alter that aspect, only to revert again later.

It seems every time you think you know about all there is to know about these things, some other oddity is noticed. It's like assembling a jigsaw puzzle with the pieces face down. 

[Greasemonkey]

I know that the lugged receivers are a near impossible fit in the stocks for pinned-barrel receivers without modification to the fit. (Right?)

But does this apply inversely? Will pinned barrel receivers drop in to the lug-barrel stocks and generally be loose?

Does this rifle's stock have any  indications of modifications to the inletting or crossbolt (other than the gap at the barrel base)?

Here is the inletting in mine.. crossbolt was put there once, no modification, grinding or moving.

[martin08]

My stock is the same as GM's.  The crossbolt location was never changed.

And if the red ink stamp hadn't run and smudged, we might have had a chance to know the maker, but it's illegible.