SKS-FILES FORUM
SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => Russian SKS => Topic started by: martin08 on November 01, 2017, 12:41:15 PM
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Gorgeous non-refurb original matching Letter D Series with a hardwood stock.
Or....
(https://i.imgur.com/dLHBSYJl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/l3CETCZl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ieblSYdl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/L7P31ibl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/i8VZM0ml.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/gPhQ7Nul.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/stVM5pZl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/plzqzoIl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oGkKVxtl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/B9HWnyVl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IgqRpsnl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1n9GTu1l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8n7Y172l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/NgZ9h7Ul.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YJ6GVKtl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/yITIyIBl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/T42rBNjl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3lBcWaal.jpg)
... is it?
:o
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Lots of refurb marks around that cross-bolt eh?
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Lots of refurb marks around that cross-bolt eh?
You'll have to take a much closer look, LC.
Besplode
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You think the mismatch is a simple mistaken stamp at time of assy. Matt, or could it be that two 3605 sets of hardware got mixed up? Cyrillic H and T are separated by О, П, Р, & С in alphabetical order, I have a hard time believing that Ivan grabbed the wrong one for the carrier, bolt and stock yet managed the correct one for the receiver, mag, TG etc. Maybe the engraved H shows he just had a brain fart and thought the prefix was an H when it really should have been T, then when it came time for final check, everyone just glossed over that first character and it passed right on through...
I have the following '56 guns in the survey (all refurbs):
НМ419 Д
НМ2230 Д
НМ2236 Д
НМ2900 Д
НМ3775 Д
НМ3899 Д
НМ6721 Д
ТМ388 Д
ТМ3876 Д
ТМ5143 Д
None of the others has swapped prefixes like this one does...very interesting! thumb1
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Not sure, RM.
It's one hell of a coincidence to have the same number sequence, an apparent original gun, and two different prefixes.
If the gun was assembled with these parts stateside, a fellow would need to be quite lucky to get non-refurbed parts to mate together.
And check the gas piston. It has the TM prefix, and the tube has the HM prefix.
If this is just a mis-stamped prefix or mis-assembled set of parts, it might give us insight as to the order in which parts were stamped, grouped and assembled along the line.
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Or, insight that what we think constitutes a non-furb is incorrect.
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Or, insight that what we think constitutes a non-furb is incorrect.
Mebbe... If so, my old-school knowledge just got round filed. From a distance, this looks non-refurbished, all day long!
At the very least, it's quite a conversation starter, and merits some study.
If there is anything you'd like to see closer, let me know.
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Thats what Im sayin..... We dont know what these stock marks are and even though a rifle may 'look' non furbed..... how do ya really know? Perhaps it just received minimal work at the time of rework. Perhaps refurb worker Ivanov replaced some parts and incorrectly prefixed them.
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The amount of laminate gas tube on hardwood and vice versa to me proves someone made them up separately and they got slapped on and penciled to match whatever it needed.
I suspect a lot of nonrefurbed are actually in the 'taken apart, checked, measured, dunked in cosmoline and put back together in the same stock' category rather than the 'factory-storage-cabellas' category.
Of course we now need a worldwide manhunt for the other gun.
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Just to get this down on pen and paper.... well, in a list anyway.
Group A - Parts with TM prefix.
1. Receiver
2. Magazine cover
3. Trigger guard
4. Gas piston
Group B - Parts with HM prefix.
1. Bolt carrier
2. Bolt
3. Receiver cover
4. Stock
5. Buttplate
6. Gas Tube
Group C - Parts with no prefix or number, which sometimes have numbers.
1. Rear Sight leaf
2. Extractor
3. Bayonet
Maybe Ivan was in charge of Group A. Dmitry had Group B. And Mikhail with Group C.
Or maybe Sofia, Anna and Polina.... the boys were drinking or fightingl
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Or
Group B - Parts with HM prefix.
1. Bolt carrier
2. Bolt
3. Receiver cover
4. Stock
5. Buttplate
6. Gas Tube
Were replaced at refurb and the prefix mistake was made during the re-serialization of said parts.
Not trying to bust your balls.... one hell of a nice carbine! Just sayin....
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Very possible, and the prefix mistake was made across the board with the replaced parts.
None of those parts have scrubbing evidence, though. No re-bluing. And all wear and fading appear equal.
I'm pretty sure we can almost rule out Stateside Bubba entirely. Odds are just too great against two such guns being in the same room at the same time. Both prefixes are obviously from the Letter D series.
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Definitely a pipe dream to think bubba had any hand in this one. This was most certainly a Russian oopsie. I've seen a couple of these mixed up prefixes, but always chalked it up to a mistaken stamp as they've all been refurbs. This is the first as-issued gun I've seen this on and it's a great example of why 'unissued', 'unfired' and 'non-refurb' are such non sequiturs based on what little we know about the carbines!
The question is whether it was done during the original build or during a refurb. I don't think we can truly say one way or another, but it's a fun exercise to try and rationalize the probability of each. I can honestly see it going either way.
The fact the gas tube and gas piston are different...that one bothers me greatly. You'd think those would have been installed and EP'd by the same technician if from an original build. If on a refurb, WTF were they swapping the tube out w/o swapping the piston?! I guess it could happen, never say never.
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Heck of a nice rifle regardless of how it got that way. thumb1
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...and further annotated
Just to get this down on pen and paper.... well, in a list anyway.
Group A - Parts with TM prefix.
1. Receiver
2.a. Magazine cover (group A-2 fonts match one another but differ from receiver)
2.b. Trigger guard
3. Gas piston (EP)
Group B - Parts with HM prefix.
1. Bolt carrier
2. Bolt
3. Receiver cover
4. Stock
5. Buttplate
6. Gas Tube
Group C - Parts with no prefix or number, which sometimes have numbers.
1. Rear Sight leaf
2. Extractor
3. Bayonet
Maybe Ivan was in charge of Group A. Dmitry had Group B. And Mikhail with Group C.
Or maybe Sofia, Anna and Polina.... the boys were drinking or fightingl
Magazine and trigger guard scrubbed or replaced at refurb and matched to receiver?
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Yes, it's nice. And nice enough to fool the third largest auction house in the world. Poulins has the serial number with the HM prefix listed in their books, and the auction description states, "All matching".
I missed it on initial inspection, too. I didn't catch the mistake until I entered in my books.
I have no recourse, except to turn in the whole lot. And that lot includes the immaculate /26\ Public Security. No way am I losing that. So this one will likely go up on Gunbroker, with full disclosure of course. I already have one completely matching Letter-D in hardwood anyway....
... I think.
I'd better double check! :)
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...and further annotated
Magazine and trigger guard scrubbed or replaced at refurb and matched to receiver?
You may be on to something, here.
I'll take a pic of the magazine inspection stamps tomorrow in daylight. They do seem to be a little washed, as in buffed.
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Maybe Ivan was in charge of Group A. Dmitry had Group B. And Mikhail with Group C.
Or maybe Sofia, Anna and Polina.... the boys were drinking or fightingl
OR It was 4 pm on a friday before the long weekend and someone just brain farted and never noticed.
I know ive made bigger mistakes than that.
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So, aside from the Serial Prefix mismatch...there are no other indications of refurbishment, correct?
...
Seems as if the most likely explanation is an assembly line oversight.
Even if it's an as-issued/non-refurb, I think the tube and piston can be explained: the fact the piston and tube are part of one sub-system on the rifle doesn't necessarily require that each part is EP'd by the person at the same time.
Might also have nothing to do with the arsenal at all. TM and HM ended up in the same barracks and got mixed up during detailed cleaning. Or by coincidence some stateside bumbler ended up with two nearly identical "D" rifles and made a mistake during reassembly.
What an interesting gun, m08
I don't fully understand why, but it sucks that you've gotta let it go.
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Magazine and trigger guard scrubbed or replaced at refurb and matched to receiver?
Nail on the head. Mag and trigger group were renumbered to match the receiver. I took pics of a known non-refurb letter series mag and trigger guard, and compared them to the one in question. Notice the diminished inspection stamps, direction of machine buffing marks, and thickness of trigger guard.
So, it's safe to say that this one didn't get through inspectors with mismatched prefix at original assembly. And now more likely to have been mixed up with a similar serialed gun at refurbishment.
Inspection stamps and buffing striations on mag. Non-refurb is first pictured
(https://i.imgur.com/Dsghoifl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/psm1ornl.jpg)
Serial number and buffing striations on mag.
(https://i.imgur.com/joKu8JAl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/esHFoYPl.jpg)
Serial number and thickness of trigger guard.
(https://i.imgur.com/b6EoNJll.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kTvdpUll.jpg)
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M08.. I dont think it would have been mixed up with a similar serialed gun at refurbishment, but rather a dif serial parts were used after being scrubbed blank and ready to reserialize to whatever gun they were to be used on. In the serialization process of the replacement parts, the worker flat out got the prefix wrong duck dong.
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Its a good lesson in 'as ssued' though..... Makes ya wonder if the worker got it right, would this be a 'as issed' gun in the eyes of the collector? I would think yes, and also wonder how many 'as issued' guns are out there that were indeed reworked to some level and everyone thinks its a 'as issued".
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None of the wrong prefix parts show scrubbing and renumbering. The refurbishment process could certainly have utilized un-numbered spare parts, and the incorrect prefix applied - after the scrubbing and application of the correct prefix on the mag and trigger.
I do think that there are plenty of as-issued gun out there. But this is a great example of one which might have passed as original, if not for the prefix mistake.
An example like this should give us all good reason to do some detailed inspection before declaring a gun as original manufacture. There are probably a good number of them with refurb evidence.
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Is it me or... the font on the "3" different.. the 3 on the receiver has the usual straight line on the top, the "3" on the magazine and trigger guard has the top straight line with a little hangy do off the front edge... Even the "0" font looks slightly different between the two places, one is more like a rounded fat "0", other looks like a more skinny "0"..
If it was refurbed by another shop with different font stamps, and stamped by a dyslexic stamper thumb1
Just send that gumpy dyslexic stamped thing to me.. not a fan of Russians...but I am a huge fan of dyslexia.. :)
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Yes, GM. The font, especially pertaining to the 3, is different on the two prefix part sets. This discrepancy confirms that at least two different die sets were used, if not two different machine shop locations and/or time frames of refurbishment.
I'm not sure if you really want a dyslexic Russian. "Gun shoot you" would revert to "You shoot gun", and it really becomes no different than a Chinese, Romanian, Yugo or Albanian. But if you're willing to risk a dyslexic infection throughout the vault, and have all your other guns shooting at you, send me an offer!
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Its a good lesson in 'as ssued' though..... Makes ya wonder if the worker got it right, would this be a 'as issed' gun in the eyes of the collector? I would think yes, and also wonder how many 'as issued' guns are out there that were indeed reworked to some level and everyone thinks its a 'as issued".
I think it's a better lesson in showing just how much we as a collecting community don't know about these firearms. Like I've said before, w/o knowing the pedigree of a gun from initial fabrication, to acceptance, to issuance, to refurbishment, to storage, to re-issuance, and finally some type of final storage and sale to surplus, we really are pretty limited as to what we can and cannot attribute to any particular firearm. 'Unfired', 'unissued', and 'non-refurb' are automatically out the window.
If all S/Ns on this gun had the proper prefix (regardless of font style), based on the limited knowledge we do have, I would be forced to call it an 'as-issued' gun. We just don't have any basis for not calling it that because much of everything else is subjective (such as the light stamps on the magazine M08 showed above) and to one collector these might be no big deal while to another they might be enough to be a deal breaker. I've seen tons of guns with very light crossbolt stamps, light right-side stock acceptance stamps, shellac filled valleys of S/N stamps, or extra Cyrillic letters stamped where they really don't belong. It's a tough thing to set a red line as the criteria because some of the subjective things I just mentioned may or may not be a big deal to certain collectors. dntknw1
None of the wrong prefix parts show scrubbing and renumbering. The refurbishment process could certainly have utilized un-numbered spare parts, and the incorrect prefix applied - after the scrubbing and application of the correct prefix on the mag and trigger.
I do think that there are plenty of as-issued gun out there. But this is a great example of one which might have passed as original, if not for the prefix mistake.
An example like this should give us all good reason to do some detailed inspection before declaring a gun as original manufacture. There are probably a good number of them with refurb evidence.
I think this is the most likely scenario Matt: Pristine hardware put in during the initial build that was stamped incorrectly and made it through final inspection. The odds of matching any two numbers from two 9999 numeral sets is (1/9999)*(1/9999) or 0.000001%, so I'd have to say that's just not as feasible at all. There is no way the Russians had 40 or 50 guns apart at a single time during refurb, what a nightmare that would be even with S/N to help match things up.
It could easily be a mix-up during refurb, but the incorrect EP'd S/Ns sure seem to suggest that there was some kind of issue right off the line...unless no hardware (from gas tubes, to pistons, to RSLs, to buttplates) was EP'd right off the line to start with and we are delusional to think that a gun exists that hasn't ever gone through a refurb facility.... wacko1
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Well, it will be someone else's mystery after it ships.
I had the mismatched prefix letter gun entered at $650 on my books, and it sold at $710 with 21 bids. Very close to my guess. Made just a little over $40.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/715878555 (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/715878555)
And the other 1954 Tula light refurb surprised me some. I had it on the books for $675, and it sold for $835 with 37 bids.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/715881786 (http://www.gunbroker.com/item/715881786)
Same buyer on both Russians. Two pretty nice guns.
The two Russian SKS's were in a three gun lot at the Poulin Auction, along with the mint 1963 Factory /26\ Public Security. The entire lot was $1,725 with premium.
So, I got the Jianshe PS for about $210. I could sell it for $250 and make a great profit!
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So, I got the Jianshe PS for about $210. I could sell it for $250 and make a great profit!
Check is in the mail you know where to send that PS.......... chuckles1
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So, I got the Jianshe PS for about $210. I could sell it for $250 and make a great profit!
Check is in the mail you know where to send that PS.......... chuckles1
Oh, crap. I missed a digit. Should be $1,250
:)
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So, I got the Jianshe PS for about $210. I could sell it for $250 and make a great profit!
Check is in the mail you know where to send that PS.......... chuckles1
Oh, crap. I missed a digit. Should be $1,250
:)
You would walk away with 33 bucks in profit of the total lot if you sold it for 250 thumb1 chuckles1
33 bucks in some countries can get you.............. a really good time with a happy ending rofl2
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Yea !
(http://image.ibb.co/hLnBnm/image_73.jpg) (http://imgbb.com/)
(http://preview.ibb.co/d45306/image_42.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gdPJYR)
I think if I remember, Oh Short Horn found that one at a garage sale clap1 Very Nice example indeed Martin
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This is borderline moose abuse happening here. :o
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This is borderline moose abuse happening here. :o
Oh... let me call PETA.. Protect Everything Thats Antlered Aint that what it stands for? rofl2 chuckles1
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People Eating Tasty Animals...
... excepting moose.