More on Arsenal Stamps DB, DP + Single Chinese character + serial number

[7.62FMJ]

They came through both times, now. Musta made a wrong toin at Albuquerque .  Nice rifle.  I'll agree that you might want a spike bayonet, though.

I think it was my fault.  For some reason, imgur is putting "i." before the link here lately, so it reads [img]http://www.i.imgur.com/picture....  [/ img]
I have to remove the "i." after the www and it will show up. 

[Randy]

I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

[Phosphorus32]

jliu123 who started off this thread knows a number of native Chinese speakers, so our confidence is high on the assignments. I do know Hanzi characters have different meanings depending on how they are juxtaposed but that's about where my knowledge ends. They're definitely hard to translate correctly without a good knowledge of both Mandarin and the Hanzi characters.

I refer you to earlier pages of the current thread and also the related thread below:

https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=993.msg12133#msg12133

[pcke2000]

I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅，白，吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

[Randy]

I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

[pcke2000]

I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

No, when referring 哈 to a place in China, it almost always means Harbin City. It's been years and official. Harbin is a city, not a region. (It's not like New York may mean NYC or New York State)

[firstchoice]

pcke2000, what is your best theory, guess, or otherwise, on the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles? They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character. Our assumption that the character is the location of manufacture is just that. Assumption. I'd be very intersted in your opinion and won't hold you to any absolutes.

Also, in your "travels" around the internet forums, have you encountered any other information or theories that could add to ours? All information is useful, whether it's determined to be correct or not. It can help to prove or disprove a theory, especially when it comes from different sources and research efforts. Even the blowhard know-it-alls that get little correct usually have a positive effect on debate. It makes the debate stronger and the research more in depth. So we are definitely open to more opinions and theories.

firstchoice

[Boris Badinov]

They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character.

Recently I've begun to wonder if the DB/DP carbines are somehow related to Defector policing or border patrol along the North Korean and Soviet borders in the extreme northeast of China.

There are dozen city stamps (11 known and 1 unknown) associated with the DB/DP carbines.
And at least 11 of those twelve cities are located in the three northeastern-most provinces which together comprise the geographical and historical region of Inner-Manchuria: Jilin Province, Liaoning Province, and Heilongjiang Province. My guess would be that the unkown city stamp is in that region as well (maybe inner Mongolia?).



Jilin Province Cities:

Tonghua
ChangChun
Jilin
Yanji
Baicheng
Siping

Liaoning Province Cities:
Dailan
Shenyang
Dandong
Lushun

Heilongjiang Province Cities:
Harbin

[Larry D.]

Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 

[Boris Badinov]

TBH, it's been known for a few years that the DB/DB cities are in the northeast of China-- nothing new and not my discovery.

It wasn't until a week ago that I actually looked at them on a map... and the NK and Soviet borders just really stick out...

[Randy]

Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 

Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

[firstchoice]

Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 

Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

Well, when I've used Google Translate, I get a half-way wierd explanation of the translation. I can usually get the gist of the translation but a lot is left to the imagination and I end up simply guessing the actual definitives. I like to read a lot of research and debate like we have here. Sometimes, as in this case, we still don't know the absolute meaning of the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles. But we've learned what the characters represent and possible theories as to what their purpose on the rifle is. Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though.

firstchoice

[Boris Badinov]

Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 白城市   or   Baishan 白山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.



Has this already been discussed?

[Boris Badinov]

Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though.
firstchoice[/size]

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region.  ?

[firstchoice]

Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though.
firstchoice

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region. ?

That's my thought, and hope. Someday, maybe someone from that region will be able to put some of the missing pieces together for us.

firstchoice

[Phosphorus32]

This sticky on Gunboards is interesting with regard to the Vietnamese SKSs but germane to the topic at hand are posts 28-30 by a former resident of China, xl1997, Lin Xu. The Smithsonian article in which his avocation is discussed (Post 28) mentions his home town as Jilin City. In post 30 he confirms that Type 56s were made there.


https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1085485-Vietnam-No-1-Project-SKS-Factory-in-North-Vietnam

[running-man]

Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 白城市   or   Baishan 白山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.



Has this already been discussed?

On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.

[running-man]

For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅，白，吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

Pcke, would love to hear your interpretation of the DP/DB characters.  Every one I've found has matched the first character of a city in Heilongjiang, Jilin, or Liaoning provinces, so J Liu's interpretation rang pretty true with me.  If there's a plausible alternative view, I'd love to hear it. 

[Boris Badinov]

On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.

 

Full disclosure: the wiki page for Baishan was open in my browser when I posted my last query. Apparently, I was too lazy to scroll down to the second paragraph. 

Thanks, rm.

[Boris Badinov]

This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:

"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235

if you Google "Dong Bei" the first link that shows up is the Wikipedia page for Northeast China. click that link and you it takes you to the wiki page with this map a the top of the page:



All the provinces in red are where all of the DP/DB cities are located.




Thought it was interesting enough to share.