This is really wonderful, wish we knew what the DB & DP really meant, but the characters have always been a mystery until now. Thank you for sharing!
I did a bit of research when I was gone based on this info that LC had texted me (BTW welcome to the boards jliu123, great to have you here.)
Even today the Chinese will often abbreviate province names to a single character as per this *gag* wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_China#List_of_provincial-level_divisions) page. License plates in China have the abbreviation and then also use a numerical designator to denote which city in the province the owner of the plate is located in. It's extremely plausible that the DB and DP guns were all made in the northeast sector of China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provinces) at minor factories and the chinese character identifies which city the factory was located in. thumb1
The one that sticks out like a sore thumb is Yanqing City (near Beijing), as it's a bit of an outlier from the others in the list.
I did asked about this city again and the suggestion was:
延:延吉市 (Yanji City). Similar to Dandong city, it is a North Eastern city bordering North Korea with mostly ethnic Korean residents.
Here's one I'm not certain of:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original)
Kind of looks like a "K" with two extra lines. Maybe the character 长 "Zhǎng"?
I see that Changchun is 长春 in simplified Chinese. First major state owned Chinese auto works started there in the early 50's with Soviet assistance… Interesting.
I'm getting more and more convinced that Jliu123 has it right! thumb1
Its marked DP 25,000,062 ( can't remember the chinese characters off the top of my head)
Import stamp IIRC..... Made by Norinco 7.62x39 SPORTER
B-WEST Made in China
Good catch Phos! Now...is it priced to bring home? roflI wasn't tempted at $300 for a completely mixed parentage Chinese SKS (I don't think I saw even two SNs that matched) but perhaps I should reconsider. How do you all rate these DBs, slightly uncommon, uncommon, scarce, rare? I don't see any that have popped up on RM's lists from this year.
Whats up with the s/n? 22083, Am I missing something or is this out of the ordinary?
Good shot of the bulbous gasblock. Cast for sure. Makes me wonder what sort of process mine went through to have slick, almost enameled look to it.
After more data is compiled, We'll have a better lock on numbers of these so.... while I may have started to snub my nose at mismatched....A DB would stand a better chance thumb1 $300 doesn't sound to bad to me, heck, wheel 'em and deal 'em and see what happens :))Thanks for your enabling...I mean opinion AH :))
I sent the op a pm.Cool, hopefully jliu will chime in
Awesome Hippie! thumb1
Based on what we've collected so far, I'd suspect it's most likely to be a 长 (Changchun):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original)
I haven't seen this set of characters before. Total mixmaster spotted at my LGS.
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/IMG_2175.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/IMG_2175.jpg.html)
To add a bit more to the mix, here are two unknown DB's I have with similar S/Ns (and maybe city stampings, but honestly, I can't tell, that's why they are in the unknown section in my files! chuckles1)
#1) 2217X, same importer as P32's find, same gas block at P32's as well:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_import_stamp.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_left_center.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_right_whole2.jpg~original)
#2 2844X, I honestly can't tell whether the city code on this one is the same or totally different than P32's find. Maybe I'll try mixing the missing parts of P32's with the missing parts of this one to see if that brings up a Chinese character that is identifiable:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_front_left.jpg~original)
The Chinese character on these two is the same: 旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)
Think your right... Good eye
It could be. I'm having a hard time reconciling P32's stamp to that 2844x gun I posted. The characters have stark differences, if they are the same they are certainly different stamps. I'll pull my known Lushun stamps to post tomorrow and we can compare multiple stamps (I'll crop them) side by side by side. thumb1
Another thing I have been considering, since many of these seem to have fairly consistent lackluster machining, Made with a variety of lower grade components.... Could it be that 0226 made them all, and these city stamps could just be identifiers for police/security forces/militias in these particular locations? Later Security Forces guns were specifically marked for their purpose, possibly it was just done differently earlier on...and at a far less stringent factory with regard to quality control.
If this were the case, that further throws the meaning of DB/DP into question. I don't get the use of Roman lettering while at the same time still using Chinese. (usually) The 'Destination (insert nation here)' thing doesn't sit well with me. Why would an English abbreviation be stamped before Chinese characters? Lets also consider it very unlikely that anyone in Pakistan would be speaking English, and although English is a secondary language in Bangladesh...since one doesn't make sense at all, it seems likely that the other wouldn't be consistent with that train of thought either.
It seems more likely that it was either another instance of a factory using more than one code for the same location, or two factories using four different codes. If they were indeed foreign aid guns, why didn't they go there? Why would so many different factories be utilized for such a purpose?
Let it be known that I am grasping at straws here, and these ideas are pure speculation, lest we end up with more widespread wrong information...I bet Destination Bangladesh and Destination Pakistan was someones wild guess, and the internet just ran with it....and look at us now. :)
You need professional help.
Yup...
But what I wanna know is... Why do the actual stamps have a line going through the n or shape in the lower right corner that is not present on the typed version?
Funny how far the year designation (23) is stamped away from the rest of the serial. At least that how it looks to me, and it would fall in line with the timeframe of all the other DPs and DBs.I thought so too....I am starting to clue into the serial number layouts with these....Definitely looks like it got used at some point....and thanks!
Do they all have the same groove finished barrel exteriors?
What your seeing is either tool wear, having the travel speed a tad bit fast, or combination of both.That seems to happen quite a bit...especially on the Mak-90's....and most of the SKS's that have those unique stamps on the bottom of the receiver...
New addition......has this series been seen before?
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg.html)
As soon as it's in my hot little hands.....I'll shoot different pics of it and get them posted.....definitely.New addition......has this series been seen before?
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg.html)
Can you provide a more clear picture please? I can read the first character, but not the second one. Thanks
I bought this one on GB, still waiting for it to arrive. These are odd ducks.
(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/applegoomp/pix268973021_zpsckqjlxcd.jpg)
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg)[/URL]
As soon as it's in my hot little hands.....I'll shoot different pics of it and get them posted.....definitely.
I think this one might turn out to be a Tonghua gun from Jilin province: 通
That second character is all over the place. I almost want to say it started as a '2' and was scrubbed and then something stamped over the top of it. If pcke can't make it out, there's no way I'd be able to make heads or tails out of it. Clearer photos are sure to help, definitely a neat DP there Pat! whistle12
just curious, is it possible that it's 西 ?
just curious, is it possible that it's 西 ?
The options for 西 are:
Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.
Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location.
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)
We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's NONE of those options.
Chinese characters are very specific, and there can be a huge difference in meaning between a slanted line and straight line between two similar characters.
The lower left leg of the stamp is clearly 90 degrees straight to the left. The Chinese are pretty good with stamps. I can't see them making a mistake like that or being too lazy to slant that leg.
Just my opinion.
The options for 西 are:
Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.
Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location.
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)
We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四
very difficult to tell which one the character actually represents (without knowing the arsenal history or the official arsenal codes).
The options for 西 are:
Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.
Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location.
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)
We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四
very difficult to tell which one the character actually represents (without knowing the arsenal history or the official arsenal codes).
That's the reason for my original guess of Siping as it's the only one I was able to find in the northeast portion of the country. All the others have been found in the NE provinces: Jilin, Heilongjiang, & Liaoning. We haven't seen them sprout up from other areas like Hunan, Siuchan, Chongqing, etc. dntknw1
Two questions:
1) Are the DP and DB guns isolated to a specific date range?
I'm not familiar with the method of dating with all of the serials associated with these stamps --i.e. (721)prefixes, and five and six digit serials with 0 or 00 placeholders. etc.
2) Might the DP and DB designations indicate a method of fabrication instead of a distinct arseanal location?
For example-- the various parts and assemblies were manufactured via "farm industry" network, with each distinct part or assembly manufactured at a different point on the map or within a specific region. The distinct city stamps perhaps possibly indicating assembly locations only, or terminal destination points for shipping/distribution or export. Essentially: there is no specific arsenal stamp because no specific arsenal produced the DP and DB stamped guns.
...just some ideas
One more question:
Are there any known similarities to with the serial stamps on Chinese commerical products (radios, electronics etc) produced within the same period as the DP and DB guns?
Your completely right Phos. The Bang/Pak is a big ole wag that I'm not convinced of either.
As far as the latin use of characters.... Welp, it wouldn't be the first time.
四 is also Chinese for the number 4.
Could it be a number designation of some sort?
(http://preview.ibb.co/dJm8L6/1058357795.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWfDnm)
I think the DP/DB guns are all spike bayos, no?
Worm and I were the first to associate these guns with Bang/Pak. He was the one who insisted the D stood for "destination" while I never bought into it.
In our research, we found it VERY possible the guns supplied to these nations from China could in fact be our DP and DB guns and the quantities and times line up. We know they supplied Pakistan with them prior to the Bangladesh split in 1971. After India stepped in and kicked Paks azz for Bangladesh, they were left with many SKSs. Whe also know China then helped Bangladesh further with small arms aid and later SET THEM UP TO MAKE THE T56 AK47.
You may read on pooperj site about "Bangladesh made sks information coming soon" hork spit bork bork, but I assure you..... He didn't do his research. He read somewhere "t56" and assumed the sks, but the reference is to the AK. Dont hold your breath waiting for his revaluation.
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS. Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS. Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.
ahhh, yes...
DP = Deep Penetrating
DB = Dangerous Bayonet
All those SKSs....wonder if any are DBs?
It's kind of funny that there is one dude with a blade, and everyone else has spikes. I wonder if that is the Bangladeshi version of the employee of the month parking spot. :)
Those folks without SKSs certainly do not look amused.
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS. Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.
ahhh, yes...
DP = Deep Penetrating
DB = Dangerous Bayonet
DB= Deflate Badguy
DP= Defeat Partisans or Deflate PartisansAll those SKSs....wonder if any are DBs?
It's kind of funny that there is one dude with a blade, and everyone else has spikes. I wonder if that is the Bangladeshi version of the employee of the month parking spot. :)
Those folks without SKSs certainly do not look amused.
Dude with the blade is the platoon cook...thats the uber rare DB model for cooks.. Detachable Bayonet. rofl2
Occam's razor is what I'd assume which points me towards the 四 / Siping marking. All speculation at this point, we need some nore examples!!!
Not SKS, no. Just picked up a Norinco pre-ban Type 56 AK underfolder imported by NASI MIDLAND TX , PRC 7.62 NORINCO
Welcome 7.62 from Kentucky. I can't see the pix you posted. Can't wait though.
Well since this thread has been resuscitated, that's ANOTHER one I've got to look for :P.
They came through both times, now. Musta made a wrong toin at Albuquerque wink1. Nice rifle. I'll agree that you might want a spike bayonet, though.
I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.
The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html
The Chinese character is >西
If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区
Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.
I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?
The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.
However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.
Just shootin spitballs at the wall.
Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?
They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character.
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.
I love this place.
You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.
I love this place.
You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
Google-foo.
More commonly known as Google translate.
Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice[/size]
Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice
If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region. ?
Does the DP city character : 白
refer to
Baicheng 白城市 or Baishan 白山市 ?
Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.
(https://i.ibb.co/yhYqbtk/DB-DP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fMcL2F)
Has this already been discussed?
For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui 桂.
西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.
However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅,白,吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.
On the surface, it could be. But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994. Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.
On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:
"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:
"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235
That does not sound right (in mainland China).
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:
Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
That does not sound right (in mainland China).
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.
OK, could it be both Ds stand for Dōngběi? Could the B and P further separate the cities, like Dōngběi North or Dōngběi South? Dōngběi Crips or Dōngběi Bloods? :))
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.
OK, could it be both Ds stand for Dōngběi? Could the B and P further separate the cities, like Dōngběi North or Dōngběi South? Dōngběi Crips or Dōngběi Bloods? :))
Interesting idea, but if you look at where the cities lie on a map, also on page 6, the P and B cities are interspersed, so I don’t think that’s it.
I've never heard of a "DK" stamp or a Korean connection...
...but I'd vote for a Dead Kennedys connection if a DK version did surface 8) rofl
I've never heard of a "DK" stamp or a Korean connection...
...but I'd vote for a Dead Kennedys connection if a DK version did surface 8) rofl
I so love this place.
/I>k\ rofl
/I>k\ rofl
I never knew a Capitol I was greater than a lower case k. Learn something knew every day on these threads. thumb1 chuckles1
/I>k\ rofl
I never knew a Capitol I was greater than a lower case k. Learn something knew every day on these threads. thumb1 chuckles1
Well, it is a capital letter.... :)
That was the best I could come up with to try make a Dead Kennedy's logo factory stamp. I tried a couple other ways...that was closest.
Thanks . I’m curious about the R in front of the serial number too
Thanks . I’m curious about the R in front of the serial number too