First post 1949 Russian SKS (picture heavy)

[theSKSguy45]

First post here, this is my 1949 Russian SKS. the stock is obviously not original and I think I saw one on here that had similar modifications done to it. The big question i have is about the 115 on the bolt and carrier, what is that and why have i seen them on some 1949's but no others?

Also is there a survey that I can submit my collection to? I'd love to help to crack the Cyrillic prefix codes they have fascinated me for some time

Been a lurker for a while and wanted to post.




















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Thanks for viewing my post.

[pcke2000]

Welcome! I guess you are in Canada. Was your 1949 imported by WestRifle? Thanks

A separate set of matching numbers on bolt and bolt carrier can be found on 1949, early 1950, and Izhevsk made SKS.

[pcke2000]

And does the firing pin have an electro-penciled serial as well?

[jstin2]

First off, I own a 1950 SKS with a spike bayonet EM 717. Now your 1949 ??, I have a problem with. The stock is for a blade bayonet and has been modified, but more important is that the stock ferrule is top pinned and has a slot cut in for a blade bayonet. So with these facts, I think that your rifle came with a blade bayonet and that someone put a spike on to increase value. A picture of the serial number on the dust cover would be appreciated. There is a good chance that cover has been scrubbed, but without pictures it cannot be verified. Later 1950's with a EM  serial number have been documented with a blade bayonet.

[jstin2]

Numbers on bolt and carrier have been seen on 49,50 and 51 SKS.
https://ibb.co/album/qCPshB
 
Here is a oddity in stamping bolt and carrier.
https://ibb.co/album/Jnn1yB

[running-man]

First post here, this is my 1949 Russian SKS. the stock is obviously not original and I think I saw one on here that had similar modifications done to it. The big question i have is about the 115 on the bolt and carrier, what is that and why have i seen them on some 1949's but no others?

Also is there a survey that I can submit my collection to? I'd love to help to crack the Cyrillic prefix codes they have fascinated me for some time

Been a lurker for a while and wanted to post.

Thanks for viewing my post.

First of all, welcome to the forum!  We are always glad to have new members, especially ones that post Russian SKS45 carbines in their first post!

The reason pcke & jstin ask about this being a Canadian Westrifle import & the unusual stock is that WR has been known to import carbines that have been 'humped' in some way, shape, or form.  ('Humped' is a term in the community used to describe when an individual or organization does something to a gun for the sole reason of increasing its market value.)  In this case, you are correct in that this is not the original stock, or perhaps it is the original blade bayo stock but it has been modified to fit the spike bayonet.  Unfortunately, the modifications call into question some of the other features on the carbine such as the receiver cover being an original 1949.  If they put that much effort into making the stock "appear" to be an original 1949 stock, what else was done to the carbine?  It's like pulling a loose string on a sweater, the whole thing can unravel quickly.  Loose{}Cannon almost shelled out big $$ for a '1949' SKS that turned out to be a hodgepodge of miscellaneous parts that were sort of correct, with a custom made stock and really interesting receiver cover before we started picking the gun apart noticing all the inconsistencies & he walked ran away from that particular deal.

So for your carbine, we can say that the 1949г cartouche is not original.  In all my years of collecting photos and serial numbers, I have seen perhaps 2 or 3 cartouches on correct spike bayo stocks that I would consider original, and even those are extremely well worn.  Westrifle has been caught selling SKS45s that have amber laminate stocks with pristine (i.e. newly stamped) multiple year date cartouches from 1949г through 1958г on them.  Most collectors well versed with the Russian SKS45 know that laminate stocks (and especially the amber laminate replacement stocks) *never* have cartouches, and 1956г through 1958г guns also *never* had cartouches applied to them originally.  The font on your stock also has an incorrect aspect ratio indicating that it too was not applied at Tula.

The EM prefix is an interesting one.  1950 transitional carbines are highly suspected with that prefix though there are at least 3 seemingly 1949 refurbs in the database.  Confounding this is that all the database guns have blade bayonets.  (Jstin's EM is the only one ever seen with a spike bayo.  A population of 1 is pretty lonely, I know he's been trying to find another one for a long while now but they just haven't turned up.)  I'll see if I can dig up some photos of the 5 guns in the database plus some others that I have but have not sorted yet and we can all take a look at them to see what we might be able to pick out. 

Again welcome to the forum!  Apologies if it looks like everyone is nit-picking the carbine (It does look to be in great shape to me!), but '49's are few and far between and they get scrutinized more than any other. 

Edit: Forgot to mention, I do have a Russian SKS survey in the work (for the past 4 years in fact!) but simply haven't had the time to finish it and get it online.  Hopefully soon. 

[jstin2]

theSKSguy45 - I hope that you took my comments as informative and not aggressive. One thing that you will notice on this site, is the information that you will find. Also, I do not think that this is a Westrifle modification. I believe that their rifles all have frankenpinned(welded pin) magazines? This one has a rivet on bottom.

[Shoot The Refurbs]

theSKSguy45 - I hope that you took my comments as informative and not aggressive. One thing that you will notice on this site, is the information that you will find. Also, I do not think that this is a Westrifle modification. I believe that their rifles all have frankenpinned(welded pin) magazines? This one has a rivet on bottom.

The cartouche looks like it says 1948? Although, could just be the tail of the 9 connecting cleanly, regardless, That's some clarity compared to known 49' cartouche's we've seen as well, it looks real fresh, with very straight thick lines. I definitely see the similarity to known westrifle stamps.
You can see circles from the stamps that hit the wood when they restamped this serial into it, especially obvious around the '1' and the '7'
Bayonet channel is reminiscent of an Albanian replacement stock on some of the recent Chinese imports, much unlike any I've seen come out of a Russian arsenal.
Unfortunately, the stock is beyond humped and will definitely bring the rest of the rifle into question. Not as versed into what kind of pins westrifle likes but this one definitely seems to meet all the other suspect symptoms.
As for the '115' on the bolt and carrier, my best thoughts (read I think this but have no definitive proof) on these are that they are indexing numbers to keep the bolt and carrier together during machining but before serialization, but changed this practice in lieu of something else down the line, but again, someone may have better info than me on that.
Curious what prefix is on the side of the receiver as I see both LM and EM prefix's on different metal parts?
Thank you for sharing, and as pointed out prior, no ill words or will against you intended, but when 49's crop up they definitely draw an extra level of scrutiny due to past unscrupulous individuals trying to increase their value by 'embellishing' their appearance.

[Phosphorus32]

Welcome!

Definitely a very interesting first post 

Good pictures of the serial numbers on the receiver and the back of the receiver cover would likely be quite helpful.

[theSKSguy45]

Hello again, after seeing requests for more photographs I've taken a photo of literary everything i could think to be of value to those of you whom have elected to help me (thank you). As stated before there exists at least one other rifle with the EM prefix with a spike bayonet (if i recall EM717 by user jstin2), mine is EM1725 (so not too far off). As for this being a West Rifle import I have no idea, I bought this rifle from a guy in Alberta for $1200CAD ($200 was returned to me after I complained about certain non disclosed features). The rifle has a different pin than is typical of that importer so I believe it wasn't touched by them, but ultimately I don't know.

As for the rifle itself, the stock is 100% not original. The stock has been sanded flat (literally) and re stamped with some type of stamping like Shoot The Refurbs mentioned (particularly noticeable around the date, and the 17 in EM1725). I saw a comment about the date being 1948, it is clearly 1949 in person (hopefully the photos turned out better). And one about the serial number prefix, they are all EM1725 (again hopefully the Photos illustrate that).

How I came into this rifle is a bit of a story. First I am on GunPost (Canadian GunBroker), and I see a gold SKS bayonet for sale (same one as on my 1951 in the photos). I end up buying it but when it got to me i was in far worse shape than the seller had advertised. I mentioned it to him but stated that I felt the price was still fair. We get to talking and he tells me about this 1949 SKS he has. I'm immediately interested but remembering my past experience ask for more photos. long story short the seller disclosed that he believed the stock wasn't original citing the stampings (not mentioning anything about the giant gash carved in the stock). I receive the rifle and am utterly shocked at what i am seeing. I send him photos asking what was up with the stock and i wanted a return, he states that he disclosed this (he defiantly did not) and offered me $200 of my $1200 back.

Now if I had done proper research before I would have known that the stock shouldn't have been "pot bellied" and called into question how that bayonet was sitting in that stock. You want to know the real kicker? I found a spike bayonet 1949 numbers matching (and with the correct stock) at a Gunshow for $950CAD a week later. My theory about this rifle is that it was originally equipped with a spike bayonet (perhaps wishful thinking I'll admit) and it was swapped out st some point for a blade (hence the sloppy cuts and grinding on the ferrul) then at some point was replaced with this stock and bayonet to increase its value (possibly by WestRifle). I do think the spike bayonet has the same refurb mark as the rifle (seen on last photo) but I could be grasping at straws. At the very least I do think its a 1949.

If the rifle is a phony what should I do with it? can I sell it in good conscience? is it worth anything if it's humped to such a degree?

Also sorry for the sheer number of photos.



































































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thanks again friends.

[theSKSguy45]

Thanks for the reply, I just posted more photos, hopefully they help

[theSKSguy45]

Yeah i thought it may be thought provoking, hopefully when my Izhevsk gets here i can post that too. The for me goal is to get one of each year of Russian production (5/11 so far).

[theSKSguy45]

just checked, no neither my 1950 nor 1949 have E pencil markings (although the extractor on the 1949 has two sets of E pencil marks).

[jstin2]

There is a good chance that yours is a 49, but I think that it came with a blade bayonet. It has been shown that when the stock ferrule is pinned at the top, it is for a blade bayonet. Pinned at the bottom is for a spike bayonet. I owned a refurbed 49 with a blade bayonet and stock that was pinned at top several years ago. Also the stock ferrule for a spike bayonet is smaller in size. Take a picture of your 49 and 51 side by side showing the stock ferrule. No difference will show that it is for a blade bayonet. The position of the pinning on the stock ferrule was pointed out to me when I posted my EM.



A blade stock can be modified to fit on a spike sks, but once modified, it will not fit on a bladed stock ferrule properly. An easy way to see if your 49 was made for a spike is to take your 51 stock and try to put it on your 49. If it fits, then your 49 was built for a blade bayonet. Here is a spike vs blade stock.

[running-man]

I merged your first and second posts to keep everything together in one place for future reference sksguy.

The photos are great and will help many here decide what they think of this one.

I really think I'm leaning towards all the EM prefixed guns with 90° gas blocks being transitional 50's with Jstin2's 717 being an early outlier.  I have yet to find one with a '49 cover that has a properly single line formatted '49 serial number like I can find for a good 90% of the other 1949 carbines. 

The Westrifle magazine blocks typically look like this.  Not sure there is a consensus of nomenclature for this style, I've heard 'frankenpinned' and 'pimple welded', but I think it's generally agreed that they are some of the ugliest magazine block mods out there:


There is precedence in Canada of someone (possibly other than) Westrifle (or their importer, honestly we don't have enough info to know for certain exactly *who* did what, but we do know that Westrifle continually comes up when discussing these carbines that have certain issues) modifying stocks.  Here is an example.

This is how the carbine looked when it was for sale on WR's website on April 19, 2016 & it either remained there or popped up again on May 23, 2018 according to other photo metadata I have for the carbine.


This is how it turned up on March 6, 2019 on one of the gunsites around the web (may have even been here):


Clearly the stock was sanded to remove the XX'd numbers, the cartouche stamped, and a new finish applied.  Sad thing is this was a true 1949 stock on a relatively nice verifiable 1949 carbine.  IMO, they absolutely destroyed the gun's value because as we all know, the internet never forgets.  Maybe they only need to sucker the first buyer to make it worth their while.  This carbine reminds of yours sksguy, quite a bit in fact except for the very different 5 round magazine block.











As for your carbine sksguy, It is what it is.  It's a nice one, it truly is.  If you decide to sell it, give full disclosure that the stock has been restamped and is not correct for the spike bayo.  That carbine should have a blade bayonet on it based on the V cut stock ferrule.  If (and I think it's a big if) it ever had a low profile stock ferrule on it original to spike bayonet carbines, it was removed and replaced by the Soviets long ago. One could pull the retaining pin and press the ferrule off to look underneath for the "extra" lower pin cut in the barrel, but the risk of damaging something is pretty high for the relatively low reward of knowing.

[theSKSguy45]

I appreciate it. I have pare blade bayonets and a blank stock. Would restoring this rifle to original configuration restore any of its value? I don’t really want to sell the spike bayonet for fear of it being used on another hodgepodge gun. I’ll probably end up keeping it but I’ll see about getting a genuine spike bayonet Russian SKS but I just bought an Izzy and two /26\ in cosmo so it may be a while lol.

I’ll keep what you said in mind about keeping stuff together. I have 3 other Russians I’d like to post (I’ll probably space it out though)

[running-man]

Going to a blade bayo and uncut blank/mismatching blade stock isn't going to crater the value, but it probably won't help it either.  Will you get your $1000 back out of it at some point?  I suspect yes, but only time will tell.  I think transitional '50s along with '49s will only continue going up and the spread between the two will get somewhat smaller as time moves on, but for whatever reason the premium for '49s is extremely high. Here in the states, a true '49 with a correct stock & early style magazine is a $3,000 to $4,000 minimum carbine anymore whereas another year in equal refurbished condition won't even break $750 and a transitional '50 in equal condition would be lucky to break $1200. 

By all means, post anything else in any other thread you want.  I just wanted to keep the images and info of this particular '49 all in a single thread so future members can follow the conversation more easily. 

[pcke2000]

Now if I had done proper research before I would have known that the stock shouldn't have been "pot bellied" and called into question how that bayonet was sitting in that stock. You want to know the real kicker? I found a spike bayonet 1949 numbers matching (and with the correct stock) at a Gunshow for $950CAD a week later. My theory about this rifle is that it was originally equipped with a spike bayonet (perhaps wishful thinking I'll admit) and it was swapped out st some point for a blade (hence the sloppy cuts and grinding on the ferrul) then at some point was replaced with this stock and bayonet to increase its value (possibly by WestRifle). I do think the spike bayonet has the same refurb mark as the rifle (seen on last photo) but I could be grasping at straws. At the very least I do think its a 1949.

If the rifle is a phony what should I do with it? can I sell it in good conscience? is it worth anything if it's humped to such a degree?

Could you please post pics of the $950CAD 1949 you found at a gunshow? Thanks

[running-man]

Could you please post pics of the $950CAD 1949 you found at a gunshow? Thanks

I think he meant it was "the kicker" because since he had just bought one, he did not wind up buying the (possibly nicer and more valuable) gunshow one (or at least that's the way I read it). 

No sense pouring salt on the wound pcke!

The moral of the story is if you lay hands on a '49 with the correct stock for under $1000 (US or CAD), you buy it. 

[Phosphorus32]

I agree with RM. Besides the format, the font on the receiver cover doesn’t match the font on the receiver, so a scrubbed and restamped cover.





Regardless, I think transitional 1950s are almost as interesting as 1949s.