4 digit Ghost ?

[alfred]

I have a question ?

1# I know a sneak is a Russian for sure.

2# I know the rifles with the triangle 26 are from China for sure.

3# My question is about the Ghost, I own one a four digit Ghost, How do we know they were ever in China and they are not just plane old Russian guns ?
Thanks,
Alfred

[Loose}{Cannon]

Many things tell us they are Chinese rifles, and when they were manufactured.

Have a look at this post...  especially the rolling serialization from one to the next.   

Jianshe Arsenal /26 Progression - Chinese SKS (Military) - SKS-FILES FORUM - Page 1 of 1

[running-man]

Hey Alfred,

I think worm asked this question on the 'other' boards a good while back. It was a great discussion actually, and was possibly the last good discussion I've actually seen over there (I really believe you could not have something like that over there anymore w/o someone getting banned...)

The proof we have consists of the serial number, feature set, and proof stamp progression. We have no official document, or proclamation from the Chinese that says 'these are Chinese guns'. Still the evidence is solid and there are no outliers (that I've seen).  If you think something different, by all means please post up what you think and we'll take a look at it. It's good to challenge things like this instead of following blind faith.  Nobody's going to bash you over the head here for voicing your opinion! 

[alfred]

Thanks running-man 

[alfred]

Many things tell us they are Chinese rifles, and when they were manufactured.

Have a look at this post...  especially the rolling serialization from one to the next.   

Jianshe Arsenal /26 Progression - Chinese SKS (Military) - SKS-FILES FORUM - Page 1 of 1

I know you have seen my 4 digit Ghost on the other board, so in you opinion there is no way it's Russian its a Chinese ?
And yes I do value your opinion.   

[Dannyboy53]

Whatever it may be alfred...it's a good lookin' heifer!

[CARBINE]

Whatever it may be alfred...it's a good lookin' heifer!

I will second that..

[Loose}{Cannon]

Its a very early 4 digit Chinese sks Alfred....  and a darn good lookin one at that.  These early guns are comprised of primarily if not entirely Russian part and assembled under Russian supervision.

[running-man]

It's a good question to ask Alfred.   

I honestly can't say with 100% certainty that the gun was made in China.  It could conceivably have been totally fabricated in Russia with only Chinese observation or maybe no Chinese involvement at all.

Here's why I think not:

• The ghosts do not have the same acceptance stamps that a typical Russian of that 1956 vintage does.  The acceptance stamps are notably different than what's seen on a Soviet-Sino.
• There is no indication of what Russian plant the guns were made at.  All previous and subsequent Russian guns always had Tula or Izhevsk markings on some part of the gun.  It just seems odd that Russians would change from marking to no markings back to markings. (Remember that the Soviet-Sinos had Tula star stamped receivers.)
• While there are ghost examples that are pre '94 imports. There are no ghosts that have ever turned up (that I know of) with Russian '91-'96 import stamps.

You could make an argument that the Russians contracted the ghosts specifically to deliver to China, and since they weren't making them for their own consumption, they didn't bother to mark the arsenal stamps, acceptance marks, or keep any of them for themselves.  Unfortunately there is 0 proof that says any of these three points is true and these guns were made solely in Russia.

As far as being Chinese made, we have the Soviet-Sinos that came in with pre '94 Chinese shipments. We have a very narrow S/N range for when the ghosts transitioned to /26\ with no (as of yet) overlap.  And finally we have a good inkling that the Russians continued to produce Tula marked receivers up to 1958, a full year after we think the ghosts transitioned to /26\ standings. 

That's enough evidence to sway me, but who knows, we might find something in the future that causes us to need to revisit things and tweak the hypothesis.  It's all part of collecting Cold War artifacts.

[alfred]

Thanks Guys your opinions are very much appreciated they give me lots to think about.
Alfred

[alfred]

On the rear of the buttstock there are some markings one on the left side just above the Serial number it looks like a number 13 inside of a circle ?

The other on the other side of the buttstock right side it looks like a triangle with a number 21 also inside of it ?

Any idea the origin of these two markings guys ?



 

[running-man]

The /21\ is a common stamp and continued well past the ghosts. Here is a /21\ on my matching stock off a 2 mil /26\.  /21\ is thought to be a pre WWII arsenal. LC found some good info on it a while back.



The circle stamps are more varied. I have a circle M and what might be a circle Cyrillic Y below the wrist.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Arsenal 21 was what jianshe was prior to and after ww2. In 1949 the arsenal was apparently overtaken by the communist party and by 1951 it was greatly expanded and geared up for the T53 and other comblock weapons. This was the beginning of the sino soviet relations. After the communist takeover the T53 was produced showing a new arsenal 296 stamp. 1955 it changed to 26. In 1957 the 26 received the /\. 

[alfred]

Good stuff guys thanks for your help.
Alfred 

[Stoned_Oli]

So I take it the mark on the receiver right below the beginning of the receiver cover is not a star, correct?

[running-man]

Hey Al,

I just thought of something else while I was drooling over Justridin's new Romy.

The Russians had a common practice of their serial numbers.  All their guns go something like this: XX# where XX is the cyrillic prefix and # is the serial number of the gun, starting from 1.  The thing is, the Ruskies didn't ever add preceding 0's to any of their serial numbers.  They would simply roll the numbers and add a digit when necessary (ie. XX99->XX100->XX101). 

The Chinese on the other hand, have a history of adding preceding zeroes on their guns for the smaller digits less than 1k (or even 100k as on the T53 trainer). 
Here's a T53 trainer from 1955:


Of course the Soviet Sinos:


All the way to scrubbed and newly restamped /26\ guns like this bizarre one (I know it's scrubbed and restamped because I can clearly see a faint 2 & 8 where they didn't quite totally obliterate the old numbers):


The data shows that the Chinese started the T56 run at 0001 and then incremented as necessary with 9999->10000, and 99999->100000 during the ghost run.

[alfred]

Its a very early 4 digit Chinese sks Alfred....  and a darn good lookin one at that.  These early guns are comprised of primarily if not entirely Russian part and assembled under Russian supervision.

+1 

I want to thank you guys for starting this Forum.
Between loose}{cannon & running-man the two of you have been very helpful to me.
I believe the (Triangle 21) settles the issue with me.
Thanks again guys,
Alfred