Author Topic: What to do with this handful of Bubbas  (Read 2644 times)

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Offline Dante

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What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« on: December 09, 2019, 05:51:19 PM »


So I have come into possession of 4 Chinese SKS rifles, and I'm not quite sure what to do with them. 

3 full sized (/906\, CAI ST ALB VT, serial numbers 1617xxx, 1716xxx, 1720xxx) which, if I'm reading the data right, makes them early 70s, and one paratrooper (A13XX, /26\, CJA SFLD,MI.) which could be built from a 1959. All are now on what might be Cobray folding stocks (based on an oily page in the bag of parts) and converted to use removable Zytel Mags, of which I have only one. 

The good news is that metal parts all have matching numbers, and I have matching stocks (handguards are not numbered, or are pencilled in) for all but the paratrooper. 
Likewise, I have the numbered magazines for 3 rifles (the paratrooper and 2 others).

I'm a few parts short if I assume that that all 4 would be more valuable restored to their original configuration.
One will need a magazine, the para will need a stock, and I need one more original mag release from somewhere.
As I understand the 922r rules, they're ok now, but if I change back one thing back, I pretty much have to change it all.

So here are the questions:

1) Where would you recommend looking for a paratrooper stock that will fit a cut-down spike bayonet?  My searches so far have failed to turn one up.
2) Of the 3 magazine releases I have, two have what I would call a "tombstone" shape, and one is more of a "bell curve."  I'm going to assume the bell is from the paratrooper, unless someone knows better, so I'm looking for another tombstone to finish out the set.   
3) Am I nuts to think these rifles would be worth more one way than the other?


Teach me something.   ::)


It's not too easy to tell but the rightmost mag catch is slanted, while the sides of the other 2 are parallel.




Offline Bacarnal

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2019, 07:44:33 PM »
Try your paratrooper in one of the regular stocks since MOST of the stocks are standard (not all I found out). If it fits, I have a few here since the paratrooper used a standard length stock (blade was cut down to fit the channel).  Also, I think all of your bayonets are upside down.  The "rib" is supposed to fit in the channel when folded and the "flat" topmost when in fighting position.  In addition, I have several spare Chinese mags.  I don't have the mag release, but someone here, Gunbroker or Gunparts Corp should have one.  Cheers, Bruce.

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2019, 08:15:05 PM »
Yes, they are better and more valuable in wood and changing them back to wood has no bearing on 922r. It's the other way around.

If you're fortunate enough to find a Para stock for your barrel lug, great. If it's unnumbered better still. Blade and spike paratrooper stocks are unique. The blade ones will just cut the reinforcing pin in the forearm, the spikers will have a uniform width the entire length, not tapered.

The mag releases are not stock, and if you're missing a numbered mag, or numbered stock (Para) then those rifles are not matching. although, in the case of the Para, it could have come scrubbed or with a different number on the wood.

Regardless, nice git. PAX
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Offline Dante

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2019, 10:32:04 PM »
If you're fortunate enough to find a Para stock for your barrel lug, great. If it's unnumbered better still. Blade and spike paratrooper stocks are unique. The blade ones will just cut the reinforcing pin in the forearm, the spikers will have a uniform width the entire length, not tapered.

The mag releases are not stock, and if you're missing a numbered mag, or numbered stock (Para) then those rifles are not matching. although, in the case of the Para, it could have come scrubbed or with a different number on the wood.

Thanks, guys.  That's good info.  So then I've got:
2 that are full matches with numbered stock, mag, receiver, trigger guard, etc.,
1 paratrooper with a number matched magazine but missing a stock, and
1 number matched barreled receiver and stock missing an original magazine. 

I've been told there was one more stock to be had from the set which is unnumbered and in minty condition, but haven't found it yet. 
If we do find it, and it's got an untapered bayonet groove, I'll assume it originally came on the para.
 
Echo1,  regarding mag releases, I know the big plastic ones currently installed aren't original, but I assumed the metal ones in the closeup shot are. They came in the same bag of parts as the numbered mags (3) and the instructions for converting to removable magazines (4).  Is there something in the second photo that tells you those metal releases aren't stock parts, either?  I can post sideways pics of them if that helps.

Good tip on the bayonets, Bruce.  I hadn't even noticed they're supposed to snug into the notch on the front end.  Sure enough, each one has a polished spot on the rib opposite the notch where they must have rubbed originally.  I'll flip them around when I swap the stocks back.  I'll test fit the para as well and shoot you a note if the fourth stock doesn't turn up soon.

Thanks!
 

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2019, 12:08:13 AM »
I was talking about the releases on the rifles. They look too long. Cool score anyhoo. PAX
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Offline firstchoice

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2019, 05:29:49 AM »
I was talking about the releases on the rifles. They look too long. Cool score anyhoo. PAX

I think those are the Cobray, or similar, extended mag releases that have been added on. The metal ones pictured are 3 of the 4 original mag releases. Not sure which one is for the '59 Para, Dante. It would be easier to average if you had the 4th one.

The Para would have been manufactured originally with a blade bayo, of course. Does it have a "U"-shaped cut on the stock ferrule or a "V"-shaped cut? ("V"-shaped for the blade bayo, "U"-shaped for the spike bayo.) There's a possibiltiy that it may have been altered to fit either. The Para's rarely made it to the consumer with a SN'd stock. They almost always came with a non-numbered stock. I think I've seen one that came with the original numbered stock, or heard about it. RM would have more info on any, or how many, Para's that came with SN'd stocks.

Anyway, you could use a non-numbered stock that was made for a long-lug barrel, w/blade bayonet cut. But the blade bayo would have to be a Para-length bayo, as well. A bit harder to find and a bit more costly, if you find one.  thumb1  But if you have all-matching metal, including the magazine, with a Para-length blade bayonet, woohoo! I'd love to have one!  thumb1 thumb1  The monetary value isn't that big of a major difference because of the non-matching stock, but that's the way the majority got to the USA consumer. I just like the way they're set up and look. My own opinion.

I guess the previous owner REALLY liked those Cobray folders, eh?  At least they had the foresight to keep almost all the original parts!

Are you getting ready to sell these or keep them?

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2019, 09:43:10 AM »
I suppose if a guy had a beat up bubbafied SKS, one of those stocks and mag catch might be good for a truck gun/range toy.

Hmmm.....might be an excuse to look for a neutered bubba......
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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2019, 12:11:16 PM »
The Para would have been manufactured originally with a blade bayo, of course. Does it have a "U"-shaped cut on the stock ferrule or a "V"-shaped cut? ("V"-shaped for the blade bayo, "U"-shaped for the spike bayo.) There's a possibiltiy that it may have been altered to fit either. The Para's rarely made it to the consumer with a SN'd stock. They almost always came with a non-numbered stock. I think I've seen one that came with the original numbered stock, or heard about it. RM would have more info on any, or how many, Para's that came with SN'd stocks.
Anyway, you could use a non-numbered stock that was made for a long-lug barrel, w/blade bayonet cut. But the blade bayo would have to be a Para-length bayo, as well. A bit harder to find and a bit more costly, if you find one.  thumb1  But if you have all-matching metal, including the magazine, with a Para-length blade bayonet, woohoo! I'd love to have one!  thumb1 thumb1  The monetary value isn't that big of a major difference because of the non-matching stock, but that's the way the majority got to the USA consumer. I just like the way they're set up and look. My own opinion.
firstchoice[/size]

The Para wouldn't necessarily have had a blade based on the serial number/year. At one time they could be ordered with either and would have been assembled as requested. I have a couple pinned barreled Paras with blades, and one long lug Para with a blade AND matching numbered stock. I've also got a Kengs Sport Para with a T89 mounted to the "nowhere rail" with a matching stock, and another Kengs without a rail, neutered FSB, and the blade channel inletted with a sliver of wood, but no numbers  :(. Appears factory, as the original finish is evenly crappy.
That long shank Para is the cream of the crop, and if you had a blade bayo on it in wood, that's the top of the Paratrooper food chain.

Those side folders are very crappy to use, but there was an adapter to swap out to a T6 style that made them more robust. The adapter could be had fixed or left side folder(?). I'm in Kali so I got a fixed one, but never installed it. PAX
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Online Phosphorus32

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2019, 02:40:43 PM »
^ Right. I have a Para made from a 1958 action that has the short spike bayonet even though a "3 million" should have a blade.






Offline Dante

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2019, 03:51:35 PM »
The Para would have been manufactured originally with a blade bayo, of course. Does it have a "U"-shaped cut on the stock ferrule or a "V"-shaped cut? ("V"-shaped for the blade bayo, "U"-shaped for the spike bayo.) There's a possibility that it may have been altered to fit either. The Para's rarely made it to the consumer with a SN'd stock. They almost always came with a non-numbered stock. I think I've seen one that came with the original numbered stock, or heard about it. RM would have more info on any, or how many, Para's that came with SN'd stocks.
Anyway, you could use a non-numbered stock that was made for a long-lug barrel, w/blade bayonet cut. But the blade bayo would have to be a Para-length bayo, as well. A bit harder to find and a bit more costly, if you find one.  thumb1  But if you have all-matching metal, including the magazine, with a Para-length blade bayonet, woohoo! I'd love to have one!  thumb1 thumb1  The monetary value isn't that big of a major difference because of the non-matching stock, but that's the way the majority got to the USA consumer. I just like the way they're set up and look. My own opinion.
firstchoice[/size]

The Para wouldn't necessarily have had a blade based on the serial number/year. At one time they could be ordered with either and would have been assembled as requested. I have a couple pinned barreled Paras with blades, and one long lug Para with a blade AND matching numbered stock. I've also got a Kengs Sport Para with a T89 mounted to the "nowhere rail" with a matching stock, and another Kengs without a rail, neutered FSB, and the blade channel inletted with a sliver of wood, but no numbers  :(. Appears factory, as the original finish is evenly crappy.
That long shank Para is the cream of the crop, and if you had a blade bayo on it in wood, that's the top of the Paratrooper food chain.

Those side folders are very crappy to use, but there was an adapter to swap out to a T6 style that made them more robust. The adapter could be had fixed or left side folder(?). I'm in Kali so I got a fixed one, but never installed it. PAX

Yes, pretty sure those extended mag releases are part of the Cobray package.  They seem to be the same material as the one removable mag.  The fourth original mag release would certainly help.  What I can find online advertised as Norinco OEM is the tombstone shape.  I think I'll get one of those and declare tombstones for the 3 pinned barrels and bell curve for the para. 

The front ferrule on the para is V cut, so if I COULD find a short blade bayonet and a stock with the cut pin to fit it, that would be pretty cool.
As Bacarnal pointed out, the bayonets are all upside down, so I flipped them.  They may be the only metal part that isn't electropenciled or stamped with the serial number.  I've completed the survey on one gun so far (turned out to be a /406\ once I got the stock off), and even the firing pin is numbered.  If I do find the fourth stock, we'll see whether it's cut for spike or blade.

I certainly don't need 4 of these, firstchoice.  7.62 is a new caliber for me, so in the hopes of not having to stock up on yet another caliber, my intention was to tidy them up and find them new owners. 
I'm not looking forward to drilling out the rivet to replace the upper handguards, but on the other hand, I'm having a pretty good time learning from you all, so I might have to keep just one... 


Offline Bacarnal

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2019, 05:43:07 PM »
Dante, the gas tube rivets are just little aluminum deals and easy to replace.  You can get them on Ebay or etsy.   I have a couple of numbered spike bayonet stocks, one of which needs finish work.  The only blade stock I have is a rust red Chinese fiberglass (an actual replacement stock) stock with handguard.  I also have some spare 10 rnd mags.  Cheers, Bruce.

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2019, 06:53:00 PM »
The Para would have been manufactured originally with a blade bayo, of course. Does it have a "U"-shaped cut on the stock ferrule or a "V"-shaped cut? ("V"-shaped for the blade bayo, "U"-shaped for the spike bayo.) There's a possibiltiy that it may have been altered to fit either. The Para's rarely made it to the consumer with a SN'd stock. They almost always came with a non-numbered stock. I think I've seen one that came with the original numbered stock, or heard about it. RM would have more info on any, or how many, Para's that came with SN'd stocks.
Anyway, you could use a non-numbered stock that was made for a long-lug barrel, w/blade bayonet cut. But the blade bayo would have to be a Para-length bayo, as well. A bit harder to find and a bit more costly, if you find one.  thumb1  But if you have all-matching metal, including the magazine, with a Para-length blade bayonet, woohoo! I'd love to have one!  thumb1 thumb1  The monetary value isn't that big of a major difference because of the non-matching stock, but that's the way the majority got to the USA consumer. I just like the way they're set up and look. My own opinion.
firstchoice[/size]

The Para wouldn't necessarily have had a blade based on the serial number/year. At one time they could be ordered with either and would have been assembled as requested. I have a couple pinned barreled Paras with blades, and one long lug Para with a blade AND matching numbered stock. I've also got a Kengs Sport Para with a T89 mounted to the "nowhere rail" with a matching stock, and another Kengs without a rail, neutered FSB, and the blade channel inletted with a sliver of wood, but no numbers  :(. Appears factory, as the original finish is evenly crappy.
That long shank Para is the cream of the crop, and if you had a blade bayo on it in wood, that's the top of the Paratrooper food chain.

Those side folders are very crappy to use, but there was an adapter to swap out to a T6 style that made them more robust. The adapter could be had fixed or left side folder(?). I'm in Kali so I got a fixed one, but never installed it. PAX

I was stating more about the way they came from Chinese factories in 1958, PAX. Yeah, they could be in any type of configuration once they got to the exporter/importer side of things. Orders for resale did vary, I realize that. I do feel pretty confident that all 1958 Type 56's were issued originally with the blade bayonet, though. His stock ferrule has the "V"-notch, which is for the blade. There are so many variables for post-USA sales that I only know to base "original configuration" on how they were released from the factory at date of manufacture.

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2019, 08:18:48 PM »
Yes indeed, Paratroopers as a "made up" commercial abomination, could have come in all kinds of different forms, matching, scrubbed, or mismatched numbers & bayo wise. The ones most sought after or coveted, are matching blade.

Dante, you can make your own Para blade bayo, and work over a blade stock slot. All Para bayos where just cut down full length ones. Hook up with someone who has one for comparison. A scrubbed or unnumbered stock would be coolest to do it to, but it still could have come from the importer with a misnumbered stock. It'd be "fake", kinda, sorta. Your Para has the wrong bayo for the ferrule already. PAX 
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"A free people ought not only be armed and disciplined" (George Washington),
But they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of Independence from any who might attempt to abuse them. echo1

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Offline bbush44

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 02:18:08 PM »
Dante, I just have to ask where or how did you come up with this collection?

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2019, 06:36:49 PM »
Just gonna toss this out there......

Wanna sell me a stock and mag catch and anything else?
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Offline Dante

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2019, 12:00:47 PM »
bbush44, I was on the receiving end of a safe clean-out. 

Larry D, I'd be happy to.  Give me a few days to drill the rivets out and see what other parts trickle in and I'll send you some close-up pics of what all I've got.

In other news, the missing stock turned up.  It's unnumbered, and looks all but unused. The spike bayonet groove looks to have been widened and refinished, but I can't tell whether it's a factory rush job or an inexpert former owner.  It looks more like someone just shaved the edges than the nice parallel router job in the reference photo (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/paratrooper.html)

Here's a pic.  What do y'all think?










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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2019, 12:44:08 PM »
Dante, if you are wanting to "unload" those side folding stocks, I suggest you putting them up on ebay since they bring some pretty good money there from those who are wanting them.  Just an idea!

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2019, 01:19:07 PM »
Good tip.  Thanks, astronut.

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2019, 01:30:48 PM »
bbush44
In other news, the missing stock turned up.  It's unnumbered, and looks all but unused. The spike bayonet groove looks to have been widened and refinished, but I can't tell whether it's a factory rush job or an inexpert former owner.  It looks more like someone just shaved the edges than the nice parallel router job in the reference photo (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/paratrooper.html)

Here's a pic.  What do y'all think?

Could have come like that as the Para build quality is all over the map. Most Bubbafizers wouldn't have known the difference or cared, plus isn't the ferrule cut for a blade? If so that would help to explain why it's not evenly wider.  The spiker will only sit so low. PAX
« Last Edit: December 12, 2019, 01:35:47 PM by echo1 »
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Offline Dante

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Re: What to do with this handful of Bubbas
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2019, 04:40:21 PM »
Yessir, the ferrule is V-cut, but the stock is spike-cut.  It does sit about flush when assembled.  On test fitting, the receiver just squeaks into place.  It's tight enough that I needed a plastic upholstery lever to pry it back out again.  As far as I can tell, everything seems to fit in place and sit just where it's supposed to.  I'm taking that as evidence that this is the right stock.  (That, and there aren't any others)

Now I'm waiting for some rivets to be delivered. 

One sad note: On disassembly for the Chinese SKS survey, it turns out that the gas tube and piston are replacements from different donor rifles somewhere.  They're electropenciled with 2 different 4-digit numbers.  Also, the trigger group is unnumbered.  Everything else (Receiver, cover, bolt, bolt carrier, magazine) has the full 5-digit serial number stamped on, not penciled.  So, less number-matchy that I thought.  The barrel and lug do share a scribe mark and matching index numbers, so I'm guessing that's original, too.

Am I right to think this was probably cobbled together from an incomplete 1959 original with whatever extra parts were on hand, and paratroopered up to ship out to the US market? 
The gas block and bayonet lug are touching, so it's not that it's been changed out for a short gas system.  (I am learning so much from this board.  Thanks again!)