Makarov Vs Tokarev

[escobert]

Hi guys, I am wondering if anyone can give me a good break down of the difference and plus/miuns of these two fine pistols. I'm looking for something to be a every day conceal carry. I don't have a ton of experience with pistols, I've only ever owned a cheap 1911. But shot many growing up as my dad had a good little collection. I know more about the Maks then the Toks but, I'm sure people know a lot more than I :p

thanks!

[Loose}{Cannon]

Well...  the 9mm ammo for the mak is easier and cheaper to get and its a smaller gun. The Tok is like a 1911 size

[escobert]

You can get toks in 9mm though :p I was thinking of like ease of loading, safties ect.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Both.     

[running-man]

I know when I'm way out of my league.  As I own neither, have fired neither, or have even held neither with my own two hands.  That's about the extent of my knowledge on both of them.   

I have heard, however, that Tok safeties are not a good design and as such, they are not the safest carry pieces.  I remember reading that a Michigan guy on the 'other' boards shot himself in the leg with one a long while ago.  No idea any details, or whether it actually was a Tokarev (though I'm 99% sure it was), but hey nothing like a "I heard it on the internet!" story to go along with my ignorance.

What does a typical equal condition Russian made example of each run?  (i.e. which do the legend collectors consider the bigger prize?)  That's where I'd start. 

[escobert]

I guess the newer Serbian made 9mm one have an upgraded safety. The old Russians seem to be asking $800+ but, used romains are $260-300, Cz's $350, 9mm Zastava $250, Polish $3-400

[Phosphorus32]

I have a Romanian TTC with the added "safety".  A post-manufacture added safety does not inspire me with confidence (and it's ugly). I've never used (or considered using) this as a carry pistol.  It's definitely a full-sized pistol, as LC mentioned and is SA only. I'd rather carry an M1911, or my Sig P226 (in 9x19) if I was going to go full size. I do like the 7.62x25mm round that the original military configuration Tokarevs fire. It's a flat shooting supersonic round that's easy on the hand with these full-sized all-steel pistols. The Serbian M70A Tokarev is a 9x19mm, as you point out, and has an additional round, with the additional length in the grip I presume, since I think it's still a single stack magazine. It isn't C&R of course.  The Yugoslavian M57 in the original 7.62x25mm is C&R, as are the other country's offerings. The Tokarevs are interesting pistols.  Not quite as easy to break down and clean as a Makarov but still easy, and the pull out hammer group is unique and makes clean up and lubrication of that element very easy.

I have no experience with the true Makarovs but would really like a Russian (or East German) Pistolet Makarova some day. I carry a Polish P-64 (which is a Polish mini-Mak) filled with 9x18mm Hornady Critical Defense FTX ammo.  I really like it, as it's a true pocket pistol.  It has a safety/decocker that inspires confidence and has a positive engagement yet is still quiet when moving from safe to fire. It has a full chamber indicator on the back of the pistol which is very easy to feel. Since it's a blowback pistol, it's very easy to disassemble and clean with just a few large parts when field stripped . The downsides are a 24 lb DA trigger pull and a mere 6+1 capacity. I carry an extra mag in the coin pocket of my jeans or shorts, so that gives me 13 with a mag change.  The mag release is the odd and awkward bottom of the mag well "button" that has to be pushed forward, so I wouldn't count on a fast mag change under duress.  I have fired it under stress (adrenaline mode) and didn't even notice the 24 lb trigger pull in that situation.  Of course that was intentionally trying to NOT hit anything, since I was just scaring off 4 charging dogs (noise maker not lethal deployment), so that's not an endorsement of accurate fire in DA mode.  The SA pull is more reasonable and cocking the hammer is quite easy and again quite quiet. One of the main requirements for me in a concealed carry pistol is complete familiarity with the operation and all of the subtleties/peculiarities of the pistol and I am familiar and confident and instinctive in the operation of this pistol.  Not offering a 100% endorsement, just saying this pistol works for me. 

Again entering my "no personal experience" territory, the Russian IJ-70 "modern" commercial Makarovs are available in 9x19mm. These Makarovs are larger and I'm not sure they would fit in the pocket carry category but certainly still in the small concealed carry range. Certainly the 9x19 has a lot more ammo options for SD applications, so that is a plus.

[escobert]

There we go! that's what I was looking for lol. Thank you!

I had heard the older Toks don't have a great safety, and that's what gave me pause on them for a EDCC. I think if I go the Tok route it'll be one of the newer made Serbians.  I should have put this in the mil surp pistol forum ><

[armedhippie]

I'm currently loving and chasing down tokarevs atm so I may seem biased 

As for their safeties, keep in mind the Tokarev was not designed or originally made with a traditional safety. Its safety is the hammer in 1/2 cock position, which locks the trigger. As for how safe that is for carry I have no personal knowledge. The reason we've all heard bad about their safeties, is because to legaly be imported...they needed a traditional safety. Some were just haphazardly slapped on by the importers and didn't work so well. Others were put on as an after thought by the exporters, again....sometimes with not alot of care.
I have a Norinco m213 in 9mm and the safety does indeed....not work but I have a Norinco M 54-1 in 7.62x25 where the safety works slick. So they can be hit or miss.

Now some of the Zastava Toks were redesigned with safeties from the factory. The M 88 (with after added safety) Changed to the M 88A ....it originaly left the Zastava plant with a safety and works quite well.

While the Tok is full size.... it is also very slim ( under an inch wide except the widest point which is the grips, at a lil over an inch 1/4) It conceals well and doesn't easily "print" IMO.

I keep running into the Polish P64 and before you know it I'll have 1  but Phos is right on a slow mag change with them. Now the Tok is very fast comparably, with the release right beside the trigger like on other designs. Since you have experience with a 1911... A tok would feel familiar.

If size is an issue...The M 88A is much smaller than a traditional Tok and in 9mm  I picked up a few cheap and love 'em. I still prefer the 7.62x25... The 1st time I shot it, that was it...I was hooked 

I say get both  Thats what I plan to do 

[jd?]

I love my Mak.  Shot it quite a bit this weekend.  Heavy enough to tame the recoil, but seems to hit pretty hard. (my scientific Ka-Flang the gong test )

Sights are pretty weak as is the case on many carry guns, but if I take my time I could shoot your tits off at 25 yards.  These are very accurate pistols.  Silver Bear ammo is pretty cheap and easy to get, and I shoot it when I might not find my brass.  I also reload for it, cast bullets for it, and make brass for it from standard nines. 

Trigger on mine is good on both SA and DA, and I carry mine loaded chamber safety off.  Hammer is blocked until trigger is pulled.  I'd prefer no safety at all, except it is also the decocker, and I do use the decocker frequently to make the gun safe quickly.  jd

[Greasemonkey]

One thing to consider, the Mak vs. Tok is age and design. The Tokarev was replaced with the more modern Makarov. The Tokarev is a great weapon and is typical durable Commie design, but something prompted the whole Warsaw pact to change to the 9x18 after all those years of service. Even today, with current ammo selections, the Tok. hasn't really caught up to self defense ammo as quick as the 9x18 Mak.  Actually it's commonly said, the Tokarev is a bit much, given the known penetration of the round. Over penetration can be a serious issue in home and other types of self defense. Hornady makes a 9x18 Critical Defense round, Corbon loads a 9x18 self defense round, several brands and varities of JHP and Buffalo Bore loads it as well. This area is where the Tokarev takes a back seat pretty much, unless you roll your own ammo.

Owning quite a few variants of each caliber, if your after a CCW 9x18 Mak,  the Cz82, 12rd mag, accurate, and over all a nice handling pistol. The 12rd mag is about the max, given most Makarov designs are 8rd, the IJ70 Russian, I believe there is a 10-12rd mag, but all the ones I've seen are 8rd. A P83 Polish Wanad, a Polish Makarov clone, or a Bulgarian would be my next choice. One cheat, the Cz82 is readily available in 380acp, known as the Cz83. The two are pretty close in ballistics. My only other recommendation, since you said CCW, get what feels right to you, what fits you, and practice.

[escobert]

Wow lots of good info guys! Thanks, I guess I came to right forums for this question in the long run, I'll have to get both :p I want to get something for cc personal/home defense asap and the over penetration of the Tok is a good thing to know since I do live in an old apartment building on a residential street. I had been leaning toward the Mak before and I think I still am but have a new found interest for the Tok. Really the price was what made me second guess the Mak over the Tok and availability. I'm about to have a child and all that fun stuff so money is tight.

[Direct Connection]

I own a couple polish p64 mac's and several Tokarevs. Their both really fun to shoot and yes the safety on the imported yugos kinda suck so I removed them and the guns function flawlessly. Just has a hole from the safety removal and I don't shoot them much because ammo is minimum 17 bucks a box. The Mac gets shot every time im at the range and has become the more popular/ cheaper gun to shoot and like GM said there is home defense rounds out there for these firecrackers and ammo is much cheaper. If it was me and I didn't own either pistol and had to decide today ? Hands down the Mac.

[armedhippie]

Hhhmmmm....Sounds more and more like I'm gonna need to get me a Makarov. I keep running into P64's but so far have ended up having to choose. 1st was a P64 or my 1st Polish M44....Yall know how that turned out  Next was the P64 or an older .30 cal + chinese stamped 54  Norinco Tok ( 7.62 x25). Well I have quickly become a big fan of the 7.62x25 so still no Mak.

Any suggestions on a good 1st choice of Makarov? or since I'll end up with 1 anyway...Just grab up the next P64 that crosses my path?  I've been eyeballing a .380 ACP Baikal IJ-70 Russian Makarov priced @ $300+. I've located an extra mag for it as well, if I end up with it. Was wanting to start out with 9x18 though...

[Greasemonkey]

Feed the need ,  one Makarov from each nation.....

The Russian, E.German, Chinese and Bulgarian all follow the same pattern. The Bulgarian is the most common, decent, fairly accurate.  My Bulgarian, never got much range time, a mag or two at the most., it lost out to the rest I guess.

The Czech Cz82 is the Mak redesigned, the Czechs did it there way. Polygonal rifled barrel, like a Glock, 12rd double stack mag.  Warning, a full disassembly is a pain and avoid unless absolutly needed.  Overall a decent, highly accurate, a little heavy though. Yea, I got 3, and the wifey claimed one, she loves it.
Oh, the Vz61 Scorpion, ok, the vz 65 or vz 82, the commercial import nutered version, I will find one in 9x18, not a Makarov, still fires the same round

Polish P64, the firecracker, replacement springs from Wolff tame it a bit, the down side, snappy recoil until you learn it, and only 6rds,  but it is nice and small. I usually carry one to my second residence, keep it int he apartment while I'm at work.

Polish P83 Wanad, looks like a Mak, kinda, shares some traits, but no parts. 8rd mag, never had a bit of issue, mags were kinda hard to find when I got mine.  Again, Award for the coolest oddball pistol name, Wanad..