SKS-FILES FORUM

SKS Carbines => Unaltered SKS Rifles => Russian SKS => Topic started by: running-man on April 16, 2015, 12:01:31 AM

Title: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on April 16, 2015, 12:01:31 AM
Every once in a while, guns show up that make you scratch your head and wonder about what the Russians actually were trying to do when they made changes.  Some of them, like going from the spring loaded firing pin to a free floating design, seem to have been made for ease of manufacturability, maintainability, or perhaps increased reliability (ever seen a FP spring after a popped primer?).  One that has always intrigued me is the transition from the year + arsenal marked receiver covers of the '49 through '55 guns, to the blank receiver covers of the '56 to '58 series. 

We fortunately have enough guns shown and mentioned by collectors all around the web that we can start to see how this transition actually played out.  These guns are 1956, letter "Д" suffix guns with a serial number beginning with the letters "KP".

Let's look at the progression of the guns I've tracked (click on the photos to enlarge them inline):


I would say that KP prefixed guns don't have the receiver Tula star stamp as the general rule. (does anyone have any info of a KP prefix, Д suffix SKS with a star on it that I somehow missed?  The cover seems to have transitioned from 1955 dated w/ a Tula star to just the Tula star, and then possibly to a blank cover as the S/Ns increased. 

Another series worth looking into is the CM series as CM9308 is verified with photos to have similar no receiver star, no-date cover, no cartouche hardwood stock characteristics with the KPs, though the S/N definitely lacks the Д. Not quite sure what to make of that….
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_receiver.jpg)(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_receiver_cover_top.jpg)(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_stock.jpg)

As always, these photos were mostly pulled from online auction sites, websites, and forum posts.  I have no idea who owns rights to what photos, so I usually just throw out the following disclaimer:

Photos from various auction sites and internet postings are used under 17 U.S. Code § 107, fair use, not for profit educational purposes.  If any of the photos in this post are yours and you explicitly do not want them shown, please contact me.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 16, 2015, 01:18:52 AM
Ok..  now I see your narrowing down the transition to letter gun and likely found the prefix in which it took place.   Very nice.  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: fenceline on April 19, 2015, 03:55:52 PM
So does this go along with the 56 to 58 production theory with letters replacing the dated covers?  Or am I getting confused?
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: running-man on April 19, 2015, 06:52:26 PM
No you're right fenceline. This is just a transition from '55 to '56 because of the suffix markings and the '55/no date star/blank covers. 

I think the Cyrillic suffixes denoting year of manufacture are solid. The fact the AK and Makarov pistols have the exact same markings and can be tied to the 56 to 62ish timeframe with specific letter designators is a pretty solid link. I'm fully sold on them, and for me, that's saying quite a lot.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: fenceline on April 19, 2015, 07:06:40 PM
Means a couple of more years to look for with regards to a complete collection. Whatever will I do haha.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: 56cbr600rr on May 07, 2015, 02:24:50 PM
Could a 1955 "CN" also be in the series that the stock excludes the year and Tula cartouche?  Makes sense since it follows the "CM" series.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: running-man on May 07, 2015, 02:43:20 PM
There is no "N" in Cyrillic. There is a "И", but it's before "М"  Next letter in the alphabet is an "Н". 

I'm seeing patterns that the Russians did *not* necessarily follow increasing alphabetical order when they assigned various prefixes.  For example KA _Д and KB _Д  series guns both have blank covers and Tula stars on the receivers while the KP _Д in this thread have stars on the covers (some with 1955 dates) and none have Tula stars on the receivers.  It's hard for me to imagine that the Russians started, stopped, then restarted something like this.  The more likely answer is that the KPs were fabricated in early '56 before the KA and KBs which were done later on. 

Good thoughts though.  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 04:01:38 AM
The Russian alphabet has 33 letters, of which I believe 29 letters are used as it relates to firearms.  The “batch codes” were a functioning secret code and thus they did not run the letters consecutively.  With the AK, some of the batch codes have repeated over the years but the point is they did not run consecutively.  So it makes perfect sense that prefix KP is when the SKS transitioned from 1955 to 1956, regardless if we see earlier letter prefixes (e.g., KA, KБ).  Possibly other batch codes will surface that also exhibit 1955 features.  If KP is in fact the only batch code where this transition occurred, with no receiver star and a 55 cover, it’s probably safe to say the entire KP run could have been accomplished in one month depending on production output?  So it’s not out of the realm to suspect that the transition “may have” occurred at the end of 1955?  And more food for thought…who’s to say the Д suffix occurred exactly in the very beginning of 1956?  For all we know it could have happened in late 1955 and carried through 1956 or not.  Do we know when their production years actually start and end?

Don’t know if any batch codes have repeated with SKSs but collecting data, like you guys are doing, is how to decipher any potential pattern, whether one exists or not. 

Here another example for your data.  It's my refurb KБ prefix and Д suffix with receiver star, no-date star cover, and no-date/cartouche stock.  Just as other examples you have documented, clearly the KP run pre-dates this, although this has earlier letters in the alphabet.

(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4699-1_zpshthryik5.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4699-1_zpshthryik5.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4684-1_zpslhnpkswg.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4684-1_zpslhnpkswg.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4738_zpso9kcow7w.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4738_zpso9kcow7w.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4882_zpssn2arnr3.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4882_zpssn2arnr3.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4919_zpswiaocjzc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4919_zpswiaocjzc.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4887_zpsfgvi6p2p.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4887_zpsfgvi6p2p.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4932_zpsmjr5qrxw.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4932_zpsmjr5qrxw.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4904_zpsqoydapmc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1956%20Russian%20Letter%20Series/IMG_4904_zpsqoydapmc.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Trasitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 02, 2015, 10:36:34 AM
Nice input Bunker!  thumb1

We've got a thread going called Breaking the Russian Cyrillic Prefix code (http://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=780.0) (you need to be rifleman or above to access it) that is where our main S/N tracking is happening.  I'm actually in the process of expanding the database to not only include S/N and year, but other feature information that will be helpful as well.

SKSs are a bit tricky because aside from the '56-'58 letter suffix guns, the parts of the gun (receiver cover & stock) that are stamped with a date is easily lost, obliterated, misplaced, or changed over during a refurb.  We have concrete examples of this such as:

(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/AT1733_И_receiver_cover2.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/AT1733_И_receiver_cover.jpg)
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/AT1733_И_receiver.jpg)

Obviously this cover is not original to this 1956 built gun.  Every feature is wrong for a 1949 build.

We either must use only pristine guns (which I started out doing, is very difficult to find good candidates, and doesn't have a huge population) or we establish patterns with like Cyrillic prefixes and features (like has been done here with the KP guns in this thread).  Unfortunately, the Russians did indeed repeat prefixes in the SKS world (I have examples of AB being used on pristine guns from both '51 as well as '54), so just finding a single prefix does no good unless we can 'date' it using feature progression or match it to a gold standard gun in some way.   

I'll be on the lookout for KБ prefixed '56s though, you have an interesting gun there.  I always assumed that the KP's were made w/o the receiver star simply because it would have been redundant since the receiver cover had the star, but your gun has both receiver star and receiver cover star with no date.  If there are other KБs like that it would be interesting to compare them.  It could be a simple receiver cover swap & S/N scrub/restamp (like my example above) with a KP gun during the refub though.  Hard to say with a single data point, but something to be on the lookout for.

As for Д occurring right at the beginning of 1956, I guess it's just an assumption on our part.  Why would they apply that mark in '55 or in '57 if it means '56?  I could see a receiver cover from inventory that had already been stamped being put on a gun made the next month, but I find it a hard sell to think they would add a letter suffix to a gun that was not representative of the year it was made.  I think we would need to revisit the Д = '56, И = '57, and K = '58 aspect of things if that were the case.

Nice Russian SKS by the way!  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 02:49:12 PM
Thanks!  Another potential aspect of this is the low number of 1955s produced and how does they play into this, if at all?  If the Д suffix is just 1956, which I'm not disputing, then can we explain the low number of 1955s?  Was it related to something going on in Russia at the time or something else?  I don't know without doing more research there but one thing I know is we don't see a lot of true 55s.  Don't know if you have this 1955 example but I saved these pics from another forum (member Martin08) a while back for reference....she is a beauty.

Credit Martin08:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_001_zpsp9xmp202.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_001_zpsp9xmp202.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_002_zps3usr9nxj.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_002_zps3usr9nxj.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_009_zps8789nvcy.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_009_zps8789nvcy.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_003_zps7tbpgoji.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_003_zps7tbpgoji.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_004_zpsghrblyzk.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_004_zpsghrblyzk.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_005_zps6hwecx37.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_005_zps6hwecx37.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_006_zpsupx4wtj7.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_006_zpsupx4wtj7.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_007_zpstpomzmod.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_007_zpstpomzmod.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_008_zps11trgoa3.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_008_zps11trgoa3.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_010_zpslrodxkgg.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_010_zpslrodxkgg.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_011_zpst8txtasb.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_011_zpst8txtasb.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_012_zps2qnpmqel.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_012_zps2qnpmqel.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_013_zps3e0fopv8.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_013_zps3e0fopv8.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_014_zpsovpnf3ab.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_014_zpsovpnf3ab.jpg.html)(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_015_zps4gpviij8.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_015_zps4gpviij8.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_016_zpsuhcdrdr7.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1955%20Russian%20SKS/55TulaSKS_016_zpsuhcdrdr7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM
Don't see alot of original 50s or a single 49 either, but that dont say much as far as their dates.

Wasn't it recently discovered that the letter guns were not even made at Tula and Izhevsk?  If so, I'm not surprised about an 55 partial production year.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM

Wasn't it recently discovered that the letter guns were not even made at Tula and Izhevsk? 

I wasn't aware of this...first I heard of that.  I'd be interested in seeing info on this.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 02, 2015, 07:19:27 PM
Quote from: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM

Wasn't it recently discovered that the letter guns were not even made at Tula and Izhevsk? 

I wasn't aware of this...first I heard of that.  I'd be interested in seeing info on this.

First I've heard of this too.  I have heard of the whole "They moved the machinery from Tula/Izhevsk to China/Romania/Yugoslavia/NK/insert-communist-puppet-state-here" assertion, but it's a bunch of speculative hot air as far as I'm concerned and I've seen ZERO proof behind any of it beyond the internet ramblings of armchair collector 'experts'.  I have seen many solid references that show the Russians sent material and technical expertise to China in the '50-'60 timeframe, but I've never seen a single one that claims that Tula or Izhevsk just up and moved. 
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 02, 2015, 07:41:18 PM
Quote from: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 02:49:12 PM
Thanks!  Another potential aspect of this is the low number of 1955s produced and how does they play into this, if at all?  If the Д suffix is just 1956, which I'm not disputing, then can we explain the low number of 1955s?  Was it related to something going on in Russia at the time or something else?  I don't know without doing more research there but one thing I know is we don't see a lot of true 55s.  Don't know if you have this 1955 example but I saved these pics from another forum (member Martin08) a while back for reference....she is a beauty.

Martin has some great looking firearms.  thumb1

You're right about the low number of '55s.  I always assumed that the '55 was a down year because that was slated to be the end of production of the 'obsolete' SKS.  There is speculation in some circles that production was restarted in order to help the Chinese and Romanians get up to speed with the SKS mass production method as well as to provide them with raw components (barreled receivers) that would allow large quantity production (i.e. keep it so the little guys didn't have to reinvent the wheel).  Indeed, we see that the first ~2000 Chinese "Soviet-Sino" type 56s were actually built on (Tula) star stamped receivers such as this beauty of LC's:

(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/FAQ/0418_receiver.jpeg)

and GM's:
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/FAQ//1239_receiver_zoom.jpg)

These are clearly not Russian built guns as the Russians had no provision for leading zeroes in any of their serial numbers of that time period. 

This is only my opinion and there's lots of speculation in there.  To be honest, this is one of those where the answer may truly never be known.  I think it's plausible though, '56 through '61 was certainly a known transitional time in Russian arms production even from a standpoint of them changing their year marking procedures from numerals to letter codes, then back to numerals. 
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 08:56:46 PM
Quote from: Bunker on September 02, 2015, 03:26:19 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM

Wasn't it recently discovered that the letter guns were not even made at Tula and Izhevsk? 

I wasn't aware of this...first I heard of that.  I'd be interested in seeing info on this.

Just like all this crap.... No documents.  Forum user OldOutlaw was in contact a few years back with someone 'in the know" within Russia that gave us the letter years as they corresponded to the Tok.  IIRC, the guy said the letter guns were assembled using nos parts at a dif location/locations.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 03, 2015, 12:18:23 AM
Quote from: running-man on September 02, 2015, 07:41:18 PM

These are clearly not Russian built guns as the Russians had no provision for leading zeroes in any of their serial numbers of that time period. 

This is only my opinion and there's lots of speculation in there.  To be honest, this is one of those where the answer may truly never be known.  I think it's plausible though, '56 through '61 was certainly a known transitional time in Russian arms production even from a standpoint of them changing their year marking procedures from numerals to letter codes, then back to numerals.

Hope I'm not bringing up things that have already been discussed in the restricting sub-forums.  If so, please let me know so I'm not bringing up topics already discussed. 

Here is something else to think about.  In the AK world they have "Forging Codes", which are intrinsic to the trunnion date.  This code tells us what factory produced the trunnion and the year it was produced, independent of the roll-stamped code or date on the trunnion.  The number is basically an in-house arsenal inventory code that is used to track the part prior to it being installed on a rifle.  However, AK forging codes have no direct relationship to when the rifle was actually put together and only the serno can be used to determine when the rifle was actually built.  A few of my trunnions for reference.

1969 Izhevsk:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6500-1_zpsa033468b.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6500-1_zpsa033468b.jpg.html)
Forging Code:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6519-1_zps2467cc15.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6519-1_zps2467cc15.jpg.html)

1969 Tula:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6449-1_zpsd27d81f4.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6449-1_zpsd27d81f4.jpg.html)
Forging Code:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6470-1_zps0d36e030.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/1969%20Russian%20AKM/IMG_6470-1_zps0d36e030.jpg.html)

I bring this up because I have noticed many (certainly not all) Russian SKSs, and some early Chinese, have numbers on their receivers and often matching numbers on the barrel.  Is this a similar type of coding as AK forging codes?  I have no idea but if so, it can shed a lot of additional info.  Of course quantity of examples is the key to any real results when looking at this kinds of things.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 03, 2015, 12:28:56 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM
Don't see alot of original 50s or a single 49 either, but that dont say much as far as their dates.

I would think 1949 can somewhat be explained as that was the first year of production and Tula may have not produced a full years worth of production?  Again, the importance of batch codes.  Does anyone know the actual month in 1949 when full production commenced?  I have several books on the subject that I'll browse through over the long weekend to see if I can find anything that narrows down the production start date but off the top of my head I don't recall anything very specific.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 03, 2015, 07:45:34 PM
It's been talked about in a few threads Bunker, but it's always good to discuss it and get others' points of view.

There are two 'commonly' seen stamps on SKS receivers/barrels.

The first is what we call the barrel/receiver match number.  These numbers are seen on the side of Russian, Early Chinese (though mid-short lug years when it suddenly stops), Albanian, and Romanian SKSs.  With data gleaned from a couple hundred entries in our Comprehensive Chinese SKS survey, it appears that the numbers ranged from 0 to 35 for a total of 36 distinct numbers.  99.9% of the guns I've seen or that have gone through the survey have the numbers on the left side of the barrel lug and left side of the receiver match.  This, along with the common alignment scribes suggest this was a way for the armorer to keep track of various components of the barreled receiver during the initial build and headspacing.  The repeating 0-35 number set would also suggest that barreled receivers were handled, headspaced, assembled, bundled / crated, what-have-you in groups of 36 at a time.

These stamps look like this:

(https://image.ibb.co/bxEbg5/receiver_barrel_match_short_lug.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/kigNM5/receiver_barrel_match_long_lug.jpg)

The second stamp certainly found on Early Chinese and Russian SKSs is a prominent stamp on the bottom of the barrel lug.  I know for a fact that these stamps are found under the Yugo lug as well as they often use the number to keep track of unmarked parts during a refurb process.  I *think* Romys and Albanian SKSs have them too, but I honestly don't know that for certain.  We don't have a 100% handle on what this stamp is, but I believe it is a barrel lot, heat treat, or other process number.  It's interesting that the number is not unique, there are groups of guns that have different serial numbers (could be over a range of a couple years even) but they have the same barrel lot number.  The lot numbers can either be all numeric with 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 numbers with no leading zeroes (there have been unconfirmed survey entries that say there are 6 characters) and the stamp might also start with a letter prefix.  These numbers are likely very similar in purpose to what you're seeing in the numbers on the AK trunions.

These stamps look like:
(https://image.ibb.co/n5yPZQ/barrel_lug_bottom.jpg)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Bunker on September 03, 2015, 10:21:27 PM
Thanks for the detailed explanation!  You've certainly cleared up a few things and great to see you're tracking all of this info.  Would be nice if the Russians or Chinese turned over the play book at some point in time but I think it's safe to assume that will never happen.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 04, 2015, 07:36:08 AM
Quote from: Bunker on September 03, 2015, 12:28:56 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 02, 2015, 03:17:28 PM
Don't see alot of original 50s or a single 49 either, but that dont say much as far as their dates.

I would think 1949 can somewhat be explained as that was the first year of production and Tula may have not produced a full years worth of production?  Again, the importance of batch codes.  Does anyone know the actual month in 1949 when full production commenced?  I have several books on the subject that I'll browse through over the long weekend to see if I can find anything that narrows down the production start date but off the top of my head I don't recall anything very specific.


I don't think anyone has ever came up with a tangible explanation as to why 49 or when in 49 etc.   A 48 receiver covered gun showed up in Canada as a matter of fact.  The cover said 1948 CKC. 

I wouldn't expect the Russians to not do anything with the CKC from 1945 to 1949...
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 04, 2015, 01:39:25 PM
Laff, LC called me out for using like 3 year old examples in my previous post.  I updated the photos to something more legible as well as showing the different Chinese long/short lug combinations.

There are also Yugo bottom lug stamps:
(https://image.ibb.co/mDdYuQ/bottom_barrel_lug_stamp.jpg)

and of course Russian bottom lug stamps:
(https://image.ibb.co/cfVMEQ/barrel_lug_bottom_stamp.jpg)

I'll see if I can get additional Romy and Alby examples as I'm pretty sure they conform to this pattern too.


Bottom line is I will be tracking the bottom barrel lug stamps and side barrel / receiver match stamps in this Russian survey (and in the Romy, Alby, Yugo etc. surveys).  Maybe we'll find some interesting patterns in there somewhere....  Just from looking at the photos I've put up, it's clear the Yugos have a different placement of the number on the flat of the lug instead of the round like Chinese/Russian barrels show.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 16, 2015, 12:15:41 AM
I just added two more sets of photo examples to the main post list.  This brings the total to 12 that have been at least talked about on the web, with 6 of those having photo documentation.  I would guess that this is the largest documentation of transitional '56s and their respective features compiled anywhere to-date.  Three cheers for SKS-Files.  clap1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 16, 2015, 06:56:11 AM
Nice..  Where you find thiose?
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 16, 2015, 09:30:22 AM
One sold at auction last month, the other I pulled from a Russian website.  Deactivated milsurps are a big deal out there (I guess the gun laws require them to be deactivated anyhow, they talk about having a deactivation 'passoport' to show that the gun has been throughly deactivated in multiple areas.  They go so far as to say any bayonet must be cut so that it structurally cannot stand up to poking someone, or full annealed so that it would be like a wet noodle if someone tried to use it.  Sad to see what happens to some of them, but the S/N & component information is still there for research at least (I guess).
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on September 16, 2015, 09:39:28 AM
Interesting
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 24, 2015, 02:22:37 PM
Found another one.  13 in total now!  KP2643_Д.  The receiver star and receiver cover fits right into the pattern we're starting to see too.  thumb1  Unfortunately the stock looks to be a replacement...
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on April 28, 2016, 03:18:41 PM
Found KP2348_Д on gunbroker.  Rough gun, but still available: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=555209650  I doubt being in the '55-'56 transitional series really produces much extra $$ come sale time.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on November 01, 2016, 03:35:02 PM
Oli found heavy refurb KP5264_Д on AKfiles and pointed me to it. (Thanks man!  thumb1)

I found KP6367_Д on gunbroker.  Likely a legit as-issued transitional there with a no-date star stamp cover.  thumb1.  I also just found a very low series KP219_Д that I'll put up at some point.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: newchi on January 06, 2017, 03:58:36 PM
I have a KA 22XX _Д without a date on the receiver cover if that helps any.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on January 06, 2017, 05:35:43 PM
Absolutely does, is it a refurb gun?  Doesn't fit in with the pattern thusfar, but data trumps the theory and there could have been a period of inconsistent covers. 

Would you mind posting up some photos?  If you are worried about the whole S/N showing on the photos, you can email them to me (running-man @ sks-files.com) and I'll blank out the relevant portions of the photos before posting them.  Here in the states, a full Russian S/N means nothing because there are 5 different ways that the 'real' S/N could have been applied.  In Canada, it may be something totally different though.  Not sure how they deal with the Cyrillic up there in the federal registry...
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: newchi on January 06, 2017, 06:12:22 PM
they just use whatever letters look closest   I O is ю and there's probably 3 different ways of getting a n w or h serial number.
What do you want photos of in particular?
I brought it as 'unissued'.  and its almost like a fake sks its so unscratched and undented, so i believe that, but it could also be all replaced everything.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/m8freg.jpg)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Justin Hell on January 06, 2017, 07:23:36 PM
Would that possibly be a 1950-51 with the 45 degree gas block?
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: newchi on January 06, 2017, 07:33:52 PM
its a tula D is all i can say, i never explored the different gas blocks in case i needed to buy one of each gas block from each factory of each year.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on January 06, 2017, 08:12:28 PM
No Justin, that's a std post '52 curved gas block, the lighting just make it look like a 45° block.

newchi, photos of the receiver S/N and tula star (if any), receiver cover rear (S/N), receiver cover top (star, date, and refurb stamp if any), stock S/N and star cartouche (if any) would be most beneficial for this thread.  Anything in addition to that is gravy that would let us know if something is not quite right with the gun (like photos of the gas block and front sight block)

As a side note, I've seen some very suspect 'new/unissued' guns on CGN that have clearly been humped or reworked by someone other than a Russian arsenal.  Not saying this one is, but this one clearly has a late Russian hardwood 'replacement' stock based on the clear toe splice I see in your photo...
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: newchi on January 06, 2017, 08:39:50 PM
I believe it was unissued since the last time it was fixed up and stuffed in a crate, because it it was unissued from the factory i would expect the whole crate to be similarly numbered, but thats just me.
Yes, its the later stock from smaller blanks with the extra splice i agree.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/2uxxmis.jpg)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on February 26, 2017, 11:35:12 PM
Just added КР7479Д and she's a beauty.  I guess my thoughts that the receiver covers may have transitioned to no stamp covers towards the end of the KP run is incorrect, or at least incorrect up through KP7479.  :P 

Quite the comprehensive list we have here.  I wish I could verify the guns w/o photos though.  8)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on February 27, 2017, 08:07:55 AM
Roger that...  In time my friend.  Just a matter of time.   thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on September 27, 2017, 11:41:42 PM
For some reason I skipped this thread when the whole photobucket fiasco occurred way back when.  That has been rectified.  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: jstin2 on November 01, 2017, 02:56:38 PM
Running-Man , I saw your collection of 56's on post- Letter D in hardwood. I bought a 56 from Canadian Tire awhile back. S/N  HM5647( I don't know how to put Russian letter N). The stock was laminate and crappy finish and I redid it. Cover has nothing on it except a refurb. mark. Matching S/N except for magazine (common in Canada), Bolt is black but S/N stamped. Rear sight has been replaced. Carbine has been bbq. painted. If you require pictures, let me know.

https://ibb.co/album/kMVpLa
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on November 01, 2017, 04:18:28 PM
I'd love photos jstin!  Start up a new thread in the Russian section and show that beauty off!  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on February 13, 2018, 02:00:22 PM
Just added KP2416_Д.  thumb1
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Derwood on August 22, 2018, 10:11:12 PM
My SKS is KP91, and based on the bayonet (all black) I'm thinking this was refurbished...but the refurb stamps are VERY badly done.  So badly, that I think  there's refurb stamping but it's hard to tell.

Okay, I know that this is for the "1955 to 1956" SKS', but I thought it was odd that the first SKS serial number in this thread is only 128 numbers higher (KP219) than mine but is dated 1955 and mine is 1953.

(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/IMG_1450_zpstskvw8t2.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/IMG_1450_zpstskvw8t2.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/IMG_1459_zpsktya0yto.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/IMG_1459_zpsktya0yto.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/003fca61-0548-495a-a529-55a4c2ef4b05_zpsyteolvaj.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/003fca61-0548-495a-a529-55a4c2ef4b05_zpsyteolvaj.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/03a48d7e-21b8-433e-a896-3218467eaf8b_zpsogjr1x7v.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/03a48d7e-21b8-433e-a896-3218467eaf8b_zpsogjr1x7v.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/adec1dc9-1740-49fb-b17e-5a3f1ae97d9c_zpsfpretukx.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/adec1dc9-1740-49fb-b17e-5a3f1ae97d9c_zpsfpretukx.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/IMG_1452_zps1jcebwok.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/IMG_1452_zps1jcebwok.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/IMG_1454_zps2orcbucf.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/IMG_1454_zps2orcbucf.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/IMG_1462_zpsn3iftvpc.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/IMG_1462_zpsn3iftvpc.jpg.html)
(http://i1376.photobucket.com/albums/ah34/D3rwood/6e95eac2-452e-471b-b242-274d501d1322_zpsbev3verf.jpg) (http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/D3rwood/media/6e95eac2-452e-471b-b242-274d501d1322_zpsbev3verf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: running-man on August 23, 2018, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: Derwood on August 22, 2018, 10:11:12 PM
My SKS is KP91...

Your gun is not a 55//56 transitional gun.  It lacks the Д suffix.  It could be a '53 but the data of the three other non-Д suffix KP's I have is inconclusive.  The one with the tabbed tube latch (KP4150) ...that is 100% not a post-'54 gun. 
(https://preview.ibb.co/bt7gfz/KP_prefix.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g9T9YK)

Are you in Canada?  That gun looks very much like a 'Westrifle special' to me, especially with that oddly placed receiver cover S/N stamping.  Those guns have been 'upgraded' by the exporter/importer and unfortunately are not useable as reliable data in the database.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: newchi on August 23, 2018, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: running-man on August 23, 2018, 01:57:10 PM


Are you in Canada?  That gun looks very much like a 'Westrifle special' to me, especially with that oddly placed receiver cover S/N stamping.  Those guns have been 'upgraded' by the exporter/importer and unfortunately are not useable as reliable data in the database.

I thought the same thing, need to see the left of the stock /serial number zoomed further out
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: pcke2000 on August 23, 2018, 06:06:31 PM
Quote from: newchi on August 23, 2018, 05:40:22 PM
Quote from: running-man on August 23, 2018, 01:57:10 PM


Are you in Canada?  That gun looks very much like a 'Westrifle special' to me, especially with that oddly placed receiver cover S/N stamping.  Those guns have been 'upgraded' by the exporter/importer and unfortunately are not useable as reliable data in the database.

I thought the same thing, need to see the left of the stock /serial number zoomed further out

same here, the stock finish and the S/N on stock immediately reminded me of Westrifle.
Title: Re: 1955 to 1956 Russian Transitional Guns
Post by: Cz315 on December 19, 2021, 09:17:23 AM
Quote from: running-man on April 16, 2015, 12:01:31 AM


Another series worth looking into is the CM series as CM9308 is verified with photos to have similar no receiver star, no-date cover, no cartouche hardwood stock characteristics with the KPs, though the S/N definitely lacks the Д. Not quite sure what to make of that….
(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_receiver.jpg)(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_receiver_cover_top.jpg)(http://sks-files.com/Pictures/Russian/FAQ/CM9308_stock.jpg)



Here is the one ~2K earlier. 1955 still present

(https://i.ibb.co/7K7xd5f/Rus-SKS-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M7qyx4v)

(https://i.ibb.co/Br5YTqP/Rus-SKS-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k9sPqQy)

(https://i.ibb.co/1Gr01js/Rus-SKS-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGcrK0T)

(https://i.ibb.co/g4rN5JG/Rus-SKS-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNRkL4m)

(https://i.ibb.co/7zj310X/Rus-SKS-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H2BcH9V)