WW2 NON-CAPTURE Mosin GI bring backs: How common?

[Boris Badinov]

A recent thread on this topic got overheated and shut down at gunboards. But it left me curious about some of the claims made about non-import M44's that were shared in the thread.

The claim was made by a few participants,  that  the "non-refurb + non-import"  condition of  a 1945 Izhevsk M44 were indications that is was most likely a US GI bring back. The scenario, as far as I could make out, suggested that  trading/selling of issued service rifles between Soviet and US grunts was the most likely source of these "non-import + non-refurb" M44s.

A quick search of past gunboards discussions came up with numerous  threads about non-import 1945 Izhevsk M44s-- both refurbs and non-refurbs.

While bringback status (Korea, or VN) cannot be ruled out entirely the available evidence suggests to me that Canada is the most likely source of numerous non-import, Soviet M44s found in the United States

No need to bore everyone with the evidence at this point.

But I am curious if there are any discussions with evidence-- photos, letters from the GI or family members, news reports, etc-- of US GIs coming home from WW2 Europe with Soviet issued small arms acquired in trade/purchase from Soviet grunts.

Thanks!

[echo1]

I missed that thread but if there's one papered, makes sense that there may be more, makes more sense Canadian origin is most plausible. PAX

[Boris Badinov]

I missed that tread but if there's one papered, makes sense that there may be more, makes more sense Canadian origin is most plausible. PAX

As someone in the discussion explained  Capture papers (DOD-63) wouldn't be required for a Mosin acquired from an ally. Firearms acquired from german capture stockpiles did require DOD-63 capture papers.

At least this is my (limited) understanding of WW2 bringbacks. 

[Boris Badinov]

The GB thread is still there. It's just locked out for further replies.

[Greasemonkey]

VN or Korea couldn't be ruled out.. BUT......  importers like the old Century Arms, old Numrich, Interarms and other big importers all could have slipped one thru before '68 in the mass amount of surplus stuff. Mosins were sold by Bannermans as far back as the 20's and 30's, so they weren't a new fangled rifle on the surplus scene in the '60s. One could have slipped thru after '68 as well, I'm sure records and quality control were looser back in the early days of import stamping. There even have been import stamps found inside the receiver you cant see until you open the bolt. Could also just be a border jumper, sure it's happened as well. Another example is like Interarms... and the Spanish Civil War Mosins and the "import stamp" Made in USSR or Made in URRS import stamps... some missed either of those stampings altogether and only individual features define them. Like the SKS.. no paperwork to back it, it's gum flapping and best guess, buy the gun.... not the story.  Too many what if's in the mix.

Personally.. I haven't heard of the situation you speak of. Can it be ruled out, no, we weren't there, the buyer wasn't there, but again, there are too many what if's in the mix to throw down the hard fact of.. this is a WWII bringback.

[Boris Badinov]

VN or Korea couldn't be ruled out.. BUT......  importers like the old Century Arms, old Numrich, Interarms and other big importers all could have slipped one thru before '68 in the mass amount of surplus stuff. Mosins were sold by Bannermans as far back as the 20's and 30's, so they weren't a new fangled rifle on the surplus scene in the '60s. One could have slipped thru after '68 as well, I'm sure records and quality control were looser back in the early days of import stamping. There even have been import stamps found inside the receiver you cant see until you open the bolt. Could also just be a border jumper, sure it's happened as well. Another example is like Interarms... and the Spanish Civil War Mosins and the "import stamp" Made in USSR or Made in URRS import stamps... some missed either of those stampings altogether and only individual features define them. Like the SKS.. no paperwork to back it, it's gum flapping and best guess, buy the gun.... not the story.  Too many what if's in the mix.

Personally.. I haven't heard of the situation you speak of. Can it be ruled out, no, we weren't there, the buyer wasn't there, but again, there are too many what if's in the mix to throw down the hard fact of.. this is a WWII bringback.

The thread in question was specific to 1945 Izhevsk M44s-- non-import stamped.

As I understand it the primary (only?) sources of Soviet Mosins prior to 1968 were Spain and Finland.
Neither of whom would be a viable source for a 1945 dated Mosin.

I've been on CGN for about 5 years now. There were at least two significant shipments of Soviet M44s 2014 and iirc 2008 or '09.  I think there were contemporaneous shipments that came to the US. I'm not a mosin guy, so I'm not sure about the dates of the US shipments

Of the 1945 NON-import Izk M44 threads I've found, they all start after the dates of the Canadian shipmdents. None of those OPs have any mention of capture papers. There is also no mention of informal documenation in the form or photograpsh or letters /testimony from a GI or family member. Nor is there any discussion of bring back stories that accompany any of the rifles at the time of purchase.

While I have no doubt that Korean and VN capture examples exist both with and without capture papers, the  sudden burst of threads discussing non-import 1945 Iz M44s during a very specific timeframe carries a very heavy suggestion (at least to me) that Canada is the most likely source for a large percentage of them.

And I have yet to come across any discussion or historical documentary that addresses the notion of Soviet and US grunts exchanging their issued service weapons in the brief 1o month window of time between VE day and the  unofficial start of the Cold War following Kennan's Long Telegram in February 1946. 




Were there other sources besides Finland and Spain for Soviet Mosins prior to 1968?

[Phosphorus32]

I imagine a few non-refurbished 1945 M44s came back from WWII as trades or pick-ups from a battlefield but I doubt there were a ton. Losing US property via trade or theft was/is a good way to get your butt brought up on charges in the US military.

I think most of the non-import-marked M44s that have the look of bring-backs came back from Vietnam and perhaps a few from Korea. Most of those from Vietnam were undoubtedly refurbished. Nearly 20 years after the Russians stopped making the M44 is plenty of time for the majority of the M44s sent to North Vietnam to have been refurbished one or more times.

https://sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4956.0

Canadian border hoppers? Probably some but again I doubt if there were many. The overwhelming majority of imports to the US and Canada were refurbished. As pointed out, not many M44s came from Finland and none from Spain, so they were all imports from the FSU countries ca. 1990 or later. They weren’t that valuable and probably about the same price in the US as in Canada so I don’t see a lot of incentive to take the risk at US-Canadian customs. However, in the spirit of never underestimating the stupidity of casual smugglers, I’m sure some came into the US in the hands of people with poor decision making skills.

As far as missed markings, I think US importers were rather diligent about markings by the 90s, twenty-something after markings became a firm requirement. Therefore, I doubt that importers’ neglect is a big source either.

All just my opinions.

[Phosphorus32]

P.S. As far as capture papers, I suspect there are at least 10x as many legitimate bring-back Mosins, Tokarev pistols, SKSs etc. as there are examples with DD603 and/or other papers.

[Boris Badinov]

I have seen numerous  MOLOT marked sks45s for sale in online sales-- some of which have been discussed here at the files. Also seen them at gun shops in eastern PA and at gun shows in PA.

If these made it over the border from Canada, it's seems to make sense that many other types of surplus made it to the US by crossing in from the north.

[Boris Badinov]

Regarding the  1945 Izhevsk M44.

I did a forum search for non-import, 1945 M44 threads at gunboards. Of the threads i found for such rifles, all of them are dated after the Canadian shipments. None of the thread OP statements make any mention of even a bringback story let alone documents of any kind.

Threads at CGN discussed  shipments in 2014. And another earlier shipment (iirc) in 2008 or 2009 i cant find the link that discusses the shipment prior to 2014. But the discussion of the 2014 shipments states that

The elusive M44 carbine is finally back in stock out here on the west coast! It's been quite awhile since we've seen a proper shipment of these handy 7.62x54mmR rifles in Canada

The dates of the non-import M44 discussions at gb (of which there are many) all seem to begin after the Canadian shipments. Might be a coincidence, but the timing is uncanny, in my opinion.

[Greasemonkey]

In todays world.. I'm not suggesting, but it's something not out of the realm of possibility.  Say a few years ago north of the border gets those shipments prior to the Molot laser marked ones, said individual lives close, this same person is also in the know of milsurps and has friends across the border..  A $69 rifle 10-15 years ago now is big bucks, even import marked ones here are 4-500+ bucks. It's like stocks and bonds, just invest and wait till the time is ripe to pull it out and show it off, because in reality.. you only have 69 bucks in it. Some of the biggest risks have the greatest rewards. If people hump Nazi weapons and American weapons for those big $$$, it's not out of the question for something to be thrown, walked or drove over an imaginary line between 2 nations... money talks and BS walks.

And whats one thing collectors in the US want..  whats the one thing they all covet...  non import stamped weapons. Nothing in the world short of a (DOD-63) gets a hardcore collector off more than a lack of or a missing import stamp on anything or nonrefurb whatever. It draws attention to them, fans the story flames, feeds the ego and later.... feeds the wallet. The milsurp collector world is like any other collector hobby, be it coins, automobiles, tractors, Jeeps, baseball cards, you can and do have dirty pool people in it just for the money.

[Boris Badinov]

In todays world.. I'm not suggesting, but it's something not out of the realm of possibility.  Say a few years ago north of the border gets those shipments prior to the Molot laser marked ones, said individual lives close, this same person is also in the know of milsurps and has friends across the border..  A $69 rifle 10-15 years ago now is big bucks, even import marked ones here are 4-500+ bucks. It's like stocks and bonds, just invest and wait till the time is ripe to pull it out and show it off, because in reality.. you only have 69 bucks in it. Some of the biggest risks have the greatest rewards. If people hump Nazi weapons and American weapons for those big $$$, it's not out of the question for something to be thrown, walked or drove over an imaginary line between 2 nations... money talks and BS walks.

And whats one thing collectors in the US want..  whats the one thing they all covet...  non import stamped weapons. Nothing in the world short of a (DOD-63) gets a hardcore collector off more than a lack of or a missing import stamp on anything or nonrefurb whatever. It draws attention to them, fans the story flames, feeds the ego and later.... feeds the wallet. The milsurp collector world is like any other collector hobby, be it coins, automobiles, tractors, Jeeps, baseball cards, you can and do have dirty pool people in it just for the money.

You've read my mind, GM.

I'm not up on the  Mosin import market . But I would guess that shipments to the US were roughly contiguous with shipments to Canada-- although I assume the Canadian shipments would've have been much smaller. There must've been multiple, no?

Money is the great motivator, and for those willing to "go the extra miles" (so to speak) the northern border is massive. Borders are porous-- just look to the south-- and money talks.


I think of the Soviet sneaks from Albania, Steve Kehoya -- he worked with Century Imports--stated in a discussion that the BATF clamped down hard on the Sneaks in the early days of the Albanian imports.  He said he was surprised to see large number of Sneaks that made it to market from the later I.O. imports-- I own three of them. And they pop up everywhere still in forum posts online and shops and shows.