Albanian SKS With All Matching Electro Pencil Serial Number and No Date?

[ouroboros]

Hello everyone, I am a new member here and this is my first post.

I am not new to firearms, and while I am far from an SKS expert, I have owned a few and feel like I know just enough to be slightly dangerous, heh. I certainly do enjoy the SKS rifle.

Thank you all in advance for the things that I will most likely learn on this forum.

Anyway... I will try to keep this as short and as organized as possible but I will be posting a number of notes and photos of this particular Albanian SKS that I purchased last week so it will likely turn out to be a slightly long first post.

I am just looking for any information that you all can give me about this rifle. I posted about this rifle over at AK Files and after people speculated about it there, they suggested that I create an account here and ask you all... so here I am.

I purchased this from the West Chester, OH Cabela's store in their Gun Library. There were actually 3 other Albanian SKS's in there too. They did not match numbers, two of them were in comparable condition to mine and one of them was considerably rougher. Three of them were priced at $475.00 (including the one I purchased) and the rougher one was $399.00. Unfortunately, only one of them included the bayonet and it was not the one that I purchased (the rough one for $399.00 was the one with the bayonet) This was as of noon on 1/16/20.

Here's where things get a little different:

-all 4 rifles were Century Imports (the import stamp under the barrel says exactly: "C.A.I. Georgia VT Albania SKS 7.62x39")

-all 4 rifles had regular SKS bolt carriers (as in, they did not have the curved AK-ish Albanian-style bolt carriers) but they did show all other major identifying characteristics of an Albanian SKS (longer handguards, 3 vent holes on the gas tube, more pronounced curved magazine, dual trap door butt plate, etc.)

-the Cabela's sales rep said that these rifles were a Cabela's Corporate purchase... and that they purchased about 100 of them and they are sending them to Cabela's stores around the country. I tried to talk him down from $475.00 to $400.00 because of the missing bayonet and the bolt carrier but he wouldn't budge. He said they had $400.00 into the rifles... but, frankly, who knows if anything this guy said was true or not... that's just what he said! I ended up paying the $475.00 and I don't feel bad about that... despite the questionable nature of the rifle.

So... the reason that I chose this one particular rifle out of the four was because it has an all-matching serial # of 66879 with no date code on every part that you would expect to see it on... but it is all electro penciled... except for one stamping of the number on the bolt and a stamping of the number on the stock. I do not see any evidence of any other older or scrubbed out serial numbers on any of the parts. I know that most Albanian serial numbers start with 0 and have a 2 digit date code. This one is just a 5 digit number. Maybe 66879 is the 879th rifle of 1966 or the 668th rifle of 1979? Haha, the way the numbers seem to be one year before and then one year after the known dates of Albanian SKS production is also sort of interesting.

Here's a bunch of photos of the rifle... what do you think we have here? Something interesting or just a mis-match of Chinese and Albanian parts, perhaps? The serial number thing does have me curious though. I will say that all of the parts appear to me to have very similar wear and machining patterns and chatter marks... and, while it might be difficult to tell by the pictures, the rifle just appears "complete" to me... if that makes sense. All of the parts also fit together very well, the stock has a very good fit and again the rifle doesn't feel "cobbled together" overall... again if that makes sense. This rifle doesn't have a date on it... but does that actually make it a "no date" model or something else?

It was packed with cosmoline, so it has likely been left untouched/unfired since it was imported. It certainly has been fired and issued but the bore is in very good condition. I wiped out the majority of the cosmoline but you'll still see some in the photos.

Anyway, no need to ramble any more, please let me know what you all think. I'll be around to respond and answer any potential questions too. I'm not terribly concerned about value, although knowing an approximate value would be nice, but really I just want to learn more about this rifle.

You can click the photos for larger images and more detail. I added some captions to some of the photos.










Does anyone know anything about these stampings on the bolt carrier? Looks like circled R's or K's and a circled P.


More bolt carrier stampings. Any thoughts? Has Albania ever produced a regular-looking carrier or is it perhaps Chinese or Russian? There is a triangle with an A inside, a circled M, a circled X and what looks like maybe a C.




One of the only stamped serial numbers (the other is on the buttstock.) The rest are electro-penciled.






Looks like there are two number 8's stamped on the rails here. There is also a number 6 stamped on the barrel near where it meets the receiver and another 6 on the receiver (both of these are covered by the buttstock in this photo but can be seen in a photo further down.)




Missing the sling loop. Some sort of sticker remnant. A close look looks like some of the "strong men" or "bikini girl" stickers that you often see on rifles from near this part of the world. The only other stamped serial number (again, the rest are electro-penciled.)

[firstchoice]

Greetings, ouroboros! Welcome to the board!

You've posted up an interesting specimen, for sure. This is the first I've seen of a electro-penciled Albanian receiver. I'd like to see a defined pic of that area of the receiver, if you could. I can't tell for sure with the one partial pic of that area, but it looks to have a shaded area just below the serial number. It may just be an illusion. Does it appear to be a depression, as in a area that's been milled, or "scrubbed"? Do you have access to a set of O.D. calipers or even a set of dial calipers to measure the consistency of the receiver's width? It doesn't appear the front of the receiver was ground. Again, without better pics, it's hard to say. Plus, with any precise measurements, we could further help to determine exactly what you have.

I'm curious, did all four of the Alby's have electro-penciled SN's on the receiver?

The Bolt Carrier looks to be a scrubbed Chinese early-"lightened" BC. Lots of neat proof marks. Not unusual for an issued Alby. There are NOS  non-sn'd Albanian Bolt Carriers out there to be found, but sometimes a bit pricey. Just depends on how much OCD is in your system.   

The missing bayonet isn't a huge problem. I see those pop up on EBay and Gunbroker pretty often. You just have to comb through the ridiculous-priced ones and find one that can still be bought and keep your rifle's cost within reason.

The sling swivel is easy to replace. I have one that you can have if you need it. You cover postage and it's yours.

*Note to modify...After reading your post again, I realized you said that yours was a CAI-import. The picture seems to confirm this. All the Alby's I've seen or heard of to date were Tennessee Guns imports. (TG Knox, TN) Has anyone else seen any of these CAI-imported Albys? Is this a new "batch" of some sort?

The serial number is throwing me a bit, too. All sn's in the data base show 4-5 digit sn's with 1971 guns having 5 rifles in the data base with 6 digit sn's. All have the 0 as first number in the sn. But nothing in the numeric range as yours.

firstchoice

[Bob_The_Student]

My guess would be the gun was scrubbed and ep'd with a Chinese serial number of parts that were put in the gun, especially since the serial number is not stamped on the receiver only ep'd.

[Larry D.]

Good to see you found us, ouroboros.

I saw your post over on the AK site and was hoping you'd wind up here.

[astronut]

Welcome to the site!  An interesting SKS you have there Sir!

[carls sks]

Good to see you found us, ouroboros.

I saw your post over on the AK site and was hoping you'd wind up here.

hi and welcome. good to have you here. like Larry, glad you came over here. 

[Boris Badinov]

This configuration of the Century import stamp is recent. I think it goes back to 2012 and the beginnings of the Sino Banian imports.

(RM- Perhaps this is what SteveK meant when he stated he'd gotten all the Albanian-made  rifles that were left in the factory?)

Bolt is Chinese. Carrier is Soviet. The only parts that are verifiabley Albanian-made are the barrel,  mag, stock, and the RSL.

Maybe even the receiver is Chinese? In most cases, it would be a bit of a stretch even to consider. But given the high state of post production handiwork, it isnt beyond the realm of possibilities. And it could explain the Soviet carrier and Chinese bolt.


The bolt face and fore end have  been subjected to corrosive salts from primer failures-- indicating that a thorough disassembly, inspection and cleaning of the bolt are in order before firing.

The pair of 8's on the receiver rails remind me of the number stamps seen on receivers and carriers from the Middle East carbines.

Quite an interesting carbine.

[running-man]

Hi Ouro, welcome to the boards!

Neat specimen!  I have photos of another EP'd Alby somewhere that I'll dig up and post when I have a chance.  This gun is certainly an odd duck.  The Albanians were certainly resourceful if nothing else.  It doesn't surprise me that there are multiple nationalities represented in yours.  The really neat thing is that they properly stamped the stock to match the given EP'd number, that is something I've not seen as typically replacement Albanian stocks are left blank.  The sling swivel being so badly out of place really leads me to believe that this is a replacement stock and not a sanded down original, but who's to say with any certainty? 

If you take clearer photos of the receiver S/N, maybe also get a nice head on shot of the CAI import stamp.  That pin punched stamp tells us a little bit about the time of importation of the gun:  CAI moved certain operations from St. Albans, VT to Georgia, VT in November, 2000 and the pin punch was put into use in mid 2002 to comply with the forthcoming BATF stamping requirements that changed in November, 2002.  Not much help as the Albanians didn't come into the country until ~2000 anyhow, but it's at least a bit of a floor. 

That the import stamp is in a very different location (under the barrel just behind the bayo lug) and with what seems to be a different format than the 2012 imported Sino-Banians makes me believe these were not brought in with that 2012 batch but rather a separate batch before or after.  With them only surfacing now, the after idea is most logical, but it's certainly possible that these could have sat hidden in a warehouse (like many of the Samco guns) all these years waiting to be discovered. 

[Loose}{Cannon]

Alby serials never went that high.... I'm guessing the 66 in the serial may represent the year. 

[Boris Badinov]

It looks like the entire gun (EP's and Stock) was serialized to match the serial number on the Chinese bolt.


No?

[Greasemonkey]

Just to throw it at the wall...and see if it sticks..  in about the 2012 timeframe, Aim Surplus had a massive Albanian parts lot for sale, maybe parts and rifles were imported. Bolts, carriers, firing pins, bayonets ect.. basically all the parts these rifles are missing. The rifles themselves were held up by bureaucratic BS redtape or something, parts could be scalped from the rifles and was fair game at the time..... But, what if these were the rifles some of those same parts came from.....   No one tracked the bolt and carrier serials of those parts from 2012...they may match these rifles.. and anyone can etch a number on parts

Enter today.. how many rifles were imported recently from that same general area, some in really...really rough shape.. how many gunsmith specials/parts guns got returned because they were "that" bad of shape, bent barrels, damage to receivers, who knows, over scared picky people wanting a cherry, etc..   Now the Albanians are free because the red tape is lifted, they can be sold, but are in need of some parts, so take the Sinobanian returns, combine the Albanian rifles with the gunsmith special usable parts that weren't fit to sell and voila.. hybrid Albanian Chinese... or....... Albanese specials..

Like i said.. see if it sticks.    <---GM and RM.. no GM.. just no no no.

[ouroboros]

Thank you all for the responses. I'll try to answer all of the extra questions here.

-No, the other 3 rifles in the store did not have electro-penciled serial numbers on the receivers... they had regular Albanian stamped serial numbers (Going from memory, I want to say 2 of them were 1978 and one was 1971.) Those other 3 rifles were non-matching numbers but they did have normal Albanian stampings... and they all had non-Albanian bolt carriers too. One had a bayonet (black spiker Albanian type but that particular rifle was much rougher... the others were missing bayonets too.) I need to do something for my work tomorrow or Thursday that will send me up near that Cabela's so maybe I'll stop in there and take a closer look at them again (provided they are still there and for sale.)

-Sure, I would gladly take a replacement sling swivel! Feel free to send me a private message with a total price and I can send payment and info, thanks.

-I did some measurements of the receiver with calipers. I do not think these are the most accurate / best quality calipers (they are Pittsburgh brand from Harbor Freight) but I am getting readings that seem to flip back and forth between 1.25"-1.26" along the length of the receiver. The calipers only read to the hundredth decimal point and the way it flips back and forth tells me it probably needs a thousandth decimal point to get a more accurate reading between 1.25-1.26." There is a horizontal line of wear on the receiver but it just seems to be the line where the top of the wood stock meets the receiver. The rest doesn't show any obvious signs of scrubbing/etc but my eye is not extremely trained in that way. I took a few pictures of both sides of the receiver and posted them below.

-I posted a better photo of the import mark. Even in person, the import mark isn't very clear... but this photo is a lot better than the last one. Again, you can click these photos for higher resolutions.

[running-man]

It looks like the entire gun (EP's and Stock) was serialized to match the serial number on the Chinese bolt.


No?

Here's a bolt from a year 10 /26\ with as many 6s, 7s, 8s, & 9s iI could find:


I'd say it's extremely probable that the bolt is off a Chinese gun when you take the combined font, S/N, and # of numerals.  I wish there was a 1, 3, or 4 on it because those look quite a bit different and we might narrow it down tremendously.  Pre year 8 7's have a distinct serif but the year 10+ 7's look exactly like what's on the OPs bolt (I don't have a good year 9 /26\ with a 7 in the bolt S/N to know when the changeover date actually is).

[Boris Badinov]

IIRC, SteveK verified that the Albanians have non-/26\ guns as well.

I can't think of any other possible origin for the bolt besides China. But it could be from a non-/26\ carbine.

From just the proof stamps, my guess is that carrier is Soviet.

Could the bolt and carrier indicate a Soviet or chinese receiver?

[echo1]

Hi o,

Looks like your rear sling swivel is in the front sling loop???

Pretty cool anomaly you've got there. PAX

[Bob_The_Student]

Good eye, Pax.

[Boris Badinov]

That's a D-ring from a sling hanging from the front sling loop.

The loop for the Albanian rear swivel is identical the Chinese and Soviet hangers:

[echo1]

That's a D-ring from a sling hanging from the front sling loop.
The loop for the Albanian rear swivel is identical the Chinese and Soviet hangers:

Looks like it'd work and you couldn't tell with some sling in there. PAX

[Boris Badinov]

Looks like it'd work and you couldn't tell with some sling in there. PAX

Yeah. And it would seem more appropriate on this rifle in particular...

[Direct Connection]

When he wouldn't budge on the price I would have offered him a price on all of them. Even at 475.00 ea your money ahead. But since you didn't, I go right back and buy the rest of them asap.  Albanians are these days finally getting the respect they should have got years ago.