Author Topic: Hypothetical build  (Read 22768 times)

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Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 09:23:55 AM »
May I weigh in with my worthless .02cents worth? The risk of losing your "right to bear arms" is not worth the gamble. To replace the hammer and sear is a piece of cake, 10 mins max, 2 parts. Replace the 10 round box mag with a detachable, 2 mins, 2 more parts. Replace the stock and hand guard with your USA made choice is 2 more parts. Total of 6 parts. Even with a Yugo, that gets you to 15-6=9, 1 under the law. All others = 8. And it IS the law. Not worth the chance you get an ATF agent looking to make a name for himself. Don't forget the agent that tried to shut down that Seattle Company selling Airsoft guns as "easily converted to FA"!!! Forget that the Airsoft won't handle the 35,000psi and explode in your face. As always CYA.

PS: 922r applies not just to the SKS, but ANY imported platform you own. My Belgian, Browning, A5 shotgun ALSO falls under the 922r requirement. So, if I were to replace the shell holder tube with one that holds 9-10 shells, for example, as a HD shotgun, I would also need to replace "additional" parts to be in compliance.

If you use an aftermarket mag (or stock), with the M-Nagant, same 992r law applies. ANY change your make to an imported firearm, falls under the 922r requirement. Modifier be aware.

Marcus

Marcus, your .02cents is worth the tax on a 25 cent purchase in Houston still isn't it. :)

I think 922r only applies to semi auto imported firearms that are on a list of 'unimportable' (post ban) firearms.  If it is no longer importable....but is already here, you cannot modify it using imported parts.  Whereas, on a Mosin as you listed in your example wouldn't apply because it is still importable, and it also is not semi auto.

The only reason I posted was I was wondering if, since broken parts are allowed to be replaced under 922r, (my original stock was never present, and it's replacement broke as well)...adding a Yugo stock was an issue.  Same goes with the hand guard....mine broke, so I had to replace it with...something.  Through the process, I thought it would be nice to add a detachable, but that is where it seems to get into 922r's evil little clutches...which is why I just opted to go back to the factory mag. 

I am also under the impression that since the AWB expired, that the 'evil features' are no longer an issue, that the bayonet swap from spike to blade (also Yugo, and also not on the list of 922r parts that apply) would also be a non issue.

I may just try contact the local BATFE folks and ask how my circumstance applies...if anything, getting them to read their own confusing wording will be a lil bit of torture as it is for most of us in trying to determine what applies and what doesn't.

BTW, you must have an awful lot more luck pulling the pin on the trigger groups than I, never once have I had that easy of a time pulling a hammer and sear....even after I figured out just how to pull the hammer off the 'easy' (right) way.  :)  I learned this the hard way on several trigger groups when attempting to install the prototype version of the Gould Engineering mag release.  Of the two TGs I was successful with, the pin came out 'easily' on one, rather difficult on another...and apparently impossible on a couple more...at least with the amount of hammering away that I was willing to do.

When this carbine is dressed in her plastic, she is good under 922r...stock, hand guard, mag body and follower...I am covered.  I just wanted to allow this thing to finally resemble what it once was....sort of.  Mixing two different countries stuff...I dunno.  Which is why I was asking.

Hopefully someone will chime in if I am wrong, its way to early to be reading 922r stuff right now, although it is making me look forward to the dentist appointment I am on my way to.  chuckles1

Offline Greatguns

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 10:23:29 AM »
As I mentioned previously, your local ATF office can tell you anything, but unless you get it in writing from the Tech branch it means squat. It is also likely the local office will refer you to them anyway.
What getting it in writing WILL do for you though is; if they ever decided to start majorly enforcing that portion of the regs you would be safe having it in writing stating it is okay. Well, as safe as one can be from a..........sorry, getting into a different topic. rofl rofl
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Offline 1mlt

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2014, 10:40:36 AM »
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. 922r is a bunch of crap and for good reason. The BATF doesn't want it easy to comply. I did find this 'worksheet', that may help in the quest to check if you are legal.

http://jobson.us/922r/

Marcus
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2014, 11:07:02 AM »
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. 922r is a bunch of crap and for good reason. The BATF doesn't want it easy to comply. I did find this 'worksheet', that may help in the quest to check if you are legal.

http://jobson.us/922r/

Marcus

Just be careful with this spreadsheet. Not saying it's wrong but it is not SKS specific so there are some parts on there that don't apply to the SKS like trunnion, barrel extension, pistol grip, magazine floor and operating rod. Muzzle attachment only applies to Yugos that came with the grenade launcher. While the SKS does have an operating rod I believe that BATF determined that in the SKS the operating rod is just an extension of the gas piston and does not count as a part. My understanding is you only count the gas piston so you only need to replace the gas piston to count 1 part. I replaced both just to be safe as the Tapco operationg rod was not much more money when I bought the Tapco gas piston but I don't think the op rods are made anymore anywhere in the USA.
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2014, 11:51:13 AM »
I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. 922r is a bunch of crap and for good reason. The BATF doesn't want it easy to comply. I did find this 'worksheet', that may help in the quest to check if you are legal.

http://jobson.us/922r/

Marcus

Just be careful with this spreadsheet. Not saying it's wrong but it is not SKS specific so there are some parts on there that don't apply to the SKS like trunnion, barrel extension, pistol grip, magazine floor and operating rod. Muzzle attachment only applies to Yugos that came with the grenade launcher. While the SKS does have an operating rod I believe that BATF determined that in the SKS the operating rod is just an extension of the gas piston and does not count as a part. My understanding is you only count the gas piston so you only need to replace the gas piston to count 1 part. I replaced both just to be safe as the Tapco operationg rod was not much more money when I bought the Tapco gas piston but I don't think the op rods are made anymore anywhere in the USA.

Carl, I agree, but we have digressed a bit. 922r IS confusing. My original point, was, I won't take the chance of being busted. YMMV, but it just isn't worth the risk, to me anyway, to test it IRL applications. I'll comply and shoot knowing I have CMA legally. The minimum is a stock and hand guard, 2 parts, detachable mag, another 2 parts, and just for grins and giggles the gas piston, another part. I went a bit further for safety sake and added Murray's spring loaded FP (not required), and did the hammer and sear, 2 more parts. All my SKS are now 922r compliant, except those I collect and don't shoot anyway. They are in original, as issued configuration. I can sleep better knowing if the black SUV's roll up at dark-30, I'm go to go!!

Clarify this for me if someone can. It is my understanding that a rifle in your safe (for example) w/o the mag inserted is considered an "incomplete" build and thus does not, at that very moment in time, fall under 922r? It MUST be 'complete', meaning a loaded mag, inserted and ready to go. Seems I read somewhere, that rifle is/could be considered a "build, not yet completed"???

Marcus
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2014, 01:43:17 PM »
Marcus, I completely agree. The authorities love nothing more than busting a gun guy so it really is guilty until proven innocent, not innocent until proven guilty when it comes to gun laws/regs. Yes, 922r is rarely if ever prosecuted except maybe as an add-on charge when someone is caught for something else. That said, they could decide to start enforcing it at any time and I don't want to be the one made an example of. I see so many guys trying to step through loopholes created by ambiguity in the law/regs and I just don't get it. Even if they are correct the onus will be on them to prove it in a court of law which costs time and money to do. Just not worth it for me personally.

I know you are aware of this, my caution is directed at the general audience, not you specifically.

I'm sorry I don't know the answer to your question about a gun without a mag being incomplete. Logic would say that if it didn't have a detachable mag you would be correct, but since when are gun laws/regs logical?
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2014, 02:15:10 PM »
Personally, I'm gonna say it to get it off my chest, so it's just my opinion. :o rofl2

Why bother with trying to turn chicken sh*t into chicken salad. An SKS won't ever turn into an AK or an AR, I don't care how many parts, pieces, money and trinkets you throw at it. It can't, because underneath you still have an SKS, just like a Mosin won't turn into a Remington 700. Like dressing up a swampdonkey for a big dancing ball, you just have a well dressed swampdonkey in the end. I mean if you want a weapon to covert into something, buy a purpose build modular weapon system like a Mr Potatohead AR. Obviously the laws are there, and at any given moment because little Johnny got away with it for all these years, who is to say they won't step up and b*tch slap someone who just stuck one American made part on. It's just easier in my eyes to avoid the situation all together, leave them as is, than live on the edge, and run any risk of being put in the situation where you have to prove your innocence against those who are looking for any and every reason to take the weapons away.

Just ramblings from a purist, I'll go away now... rofl
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2014, 03:11:47 PM »
This is a little off topic but one reason I can see for people wanting to mod out a SKS instead of just getting an AR or AK is state specific laws. Here in the commie state of CT you can no longer buy an AR or AK or VZ or anything else like that. You can have a SKS but you are restricted to 0 evil features if you switch to a detachable mag and the mag is limited to 10 rounds anyway.

So in CT if you want to mod your SKS you may as well stick with the fixed 10rd mag and then you don't have to play the evil features game at all. The problem then is that you have a harder time with your parts count if you don't get the 2 parts from the Tapco mag. Tapco 10rd fixed mags are the way to go if you want to mod a SKS in CT while still being 922r compliant and avoiding the hammer/trigger/sear replacement. Ugh, what a pain.

A SKS-M is still CT legal as long as you don't add any evil features and you stick with foreign made mags of 10rds or less. My M has Murray's hammer/trigger/sear, a Tapco gas piston and made in USA cheese grater handguard so I can use foreign mags of 10rds or less. I may get some US made followers and/or floor plates though just to be safe because the cheese grater isn't stamped made in USA, it just says that on the package it came in so I could see getting challenged on that.
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2014, 03:45:34 PM »
Ok, the home state laws bla bla aside rofl2, by the time one spends $??? for a folder stock, $?? for a mag that may or may not feed, $?? for drop free mod and or an artsy fartsy trigger group, $?? for a scope/scope mount that may or may not hold zero, plus the cost of said weapon it's self, your well in to the price range of a quality AR type in x39. In the end you end up with a weapon that possibly might, and I say might loosely, compete even against the cheapest of ARs in accuracy or function. I mean sure, it looks cool, but it's like a Z06 Corvette with a Chevette engine.  And I haven't counted the time associated with such changes, some people don't look at time like me, time to me is money, time is time I could be happily blasting away not worrying if this mod will fail, or how well that part works. chuckles1

NOTE: I ain't trying to offend anyone, I'm a too each their own, you don't mess with me, I don't mess with you type person.. It's just something I've always wondered about, basically I don't understand it with my feeble mind, which is why I'm asking. thumb1
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Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 03:57:38 PM »
Most people I seen only do one or two of the mods you listed.  Its not like every single person gose full blown, so your right back to apples/ oranges. Your also in the Altered SKS section.   thumb1
      
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2014, 04:12:48 PM »
I do agree that in most cases going nuts modifying a SKS to seem more AK or AR-ish will not be as good as a AK or AR and end up costing more money and a lot of time. All that said, some guys just like to tinker and they enjoy modifying their SKS. Many times these mods are done over time where the money spent doesn't seem so bad and the time is spread out in smaller chunks. Is it practical? nope, not usually. Do I do it? nope. Do I understand why some guys do? kinda sorta.
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 04:20:46 PM »
Why do people mod the crap out of an eagle talon when they could have just got a bmw M ?    rofl2q
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 04:43:23 PM »
Well guys, I've built a pretty successful business selling mag adapters for the SKS to utilize hi-cap mags. They range from 75.00 to 225.00 each. Our G5 made for the SGW stock is hard to keep on the shelves. Why, it solves the mag locking up issue of the BullPup stock. Yes, they improve the ability of the SKS to feed reliably. Do they turn your SKS into an AK or AR? Absolutely not, they were never intended to do that. Do they improve the SKS ability to feed and fire 20 or 30 rounds from detachable mags. You bet, that's why they sell. The one drawback to the SKS is the limited 10 round box mag. That is why we have been so successful.

Sorry for your States 10 round limit Carl. Come on down to Texas my friend.

Are our 'systems' for everyone? No, we never expected them to be. I have certain SKS rifles I won't touch from their original configuration as well. But, for a 199.00 RTI mismatch or a Norinco, or that BullPup, you bet I'll mod the pi$$ out of it and make it better that it was when new.

It's your choice not to mod or how much you want to mod. I respect that choice. It is your rifle, do with it (or don't) what you want.

Respectfully posted for both sides of the discussion.

 :)

Marcus
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Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2014, 05:34:44 PM »
Again, I was by no means trying to flair up anyone or cause a pissing match between the two sides :o, it's just a general curiosity I have always had. I figured being an admin, I would better inform myself, more or less go for a crash education on the in's and out's as I've always shied away from the chopping, modding side of the world, because as I stated, I am the purist type. :o  Because of this simple fact, as this forum grows, this subject will come up again, and again, not by me, but buy someone, someone who is whole hearted adamant about one side or the other. Given this, I would choose to remain impartial, not pick the purist or modder sides, I figure to remain impartial, I'm trying to learn the other side, the what's, the who's, the why's, the alteration and modding side, to make life easier for me in the future.. thumb1



Why do people mod the crap out of an eagle talon when they could have just got a bmw M ?    rofl2q

Why buy a run of the mill BMW M, when you could just buy a Mercedes-AMG or Lexus IS-F ???  Why? Why? Why? Mr. Anderson, Why, do you persist?
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

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Offline 1mlt

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »
GM, I'm in noway offended. Contrary, just trying to offer insight as to why we DO mod our beloved SKS's. Personally, I find the modded SKS to be more suitable to what it was originally intended. It is a 'combat carbine' and 10 rounds, in my mind, is a little short of functional for that role. A case can easily be made that it is less weight to carry more rounds on stripper clips instead of 20-30 round mags. Yes, that is true. Flip side, it is much easier to drop a mag and slap another one in just as fast and less often as it has twice as many rounds. I'm not worth a crap with stripper clips either. Just can't get the hand of it. Our G9/A adapter operates identical to the AR 15 platform. Press a button (right finger), the mag drops out. Shove in a new mag (left hand), close the bolt and squeeze. It goes bang.

Different strokes for different folks as they say. I suppose it boils down to preference. My choice is detachable mags. Is that better? Maybe, maybe not. That is what I prefer. No one way is right or wrong. Just what is best for you.

Marcus
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Offline Carl in CT

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 09:19:18 PM »
Marcus, I do think your adapters are slick as snot. In fact when I first heard about them (and they were still legal in CT) I was pretty excited and told a few friends about them. I had every intention of trying one out with a cheap SKS I had. While I was waiting for the newer version that takes AR mags to come out CT went all moonbat crazy and outlawed everything fun. No, it would not have been an AR or AK but I love the SKS and I do like to tinker but only in ways that actually improve the weapon. IMHO many of the mods guys make do little if anything to improve the SKS beyond aesthetic preference and maybe LOP issues. Your adapters definitely improve the SKS. I do hope to get out of CT in a few years but not sure I can handle Texas. I'm sure it's lovely but my Russian blood doesn't like it too hot.
It's sad that the motto of young Americans isn't "live free or die" or "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country" or even "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Instead their motto is "pee yourself, shelter in place and cry for help". Pathetic.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2014, 09:24:52 PM »
Thats what north TX is for     thumb1
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2014, 08:35:06 PM »
Well I did the mag drop mod to my SKS back in the Spring to use Tapco 20 rd mags then later decided to go back to the 10 round box magazine. Mary still uses the Tapco 20's in her carbine. They have functioned perfectly in our carbines but I just had a change of heart with mine. I guess what it boils down to for me is, I have become more of a "purist" also! With time/practice I can load with stripper clips in about the same time as I can inserting another magazine.

It all comes back to what Marcus said, "No one way is right or wrong. Just what is best for you."

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2014, 09:04:21 PM »
I decided to call the BATFE yesterday...the local number was disconnected. 

I like that.  :)

I then called the branch in the state capital, and talked with the person who answered the phone, and I am assuming the only person in the whole office. In fact, I think I woke her up!  After a fairly lengthy explanation about the issue at hand, she decided to refer me to the guys in the technical department in DC.  We shot the sh*t for a bit afterward, and she admitted to never once receiving a call regarding 922r...and from what I gleaned from the conversation, I don't think she even knew it existed.

I think the law was intended to target folk trying to import parts and assemble firearms and skirt the AWB...but worded to apply to anyone they want to apply it to...  Essentially if they want to mess with you, its one more nail in your coffin if you are already guilty of something they may or may not be able to prove.  Just a little extra for them to add to charges, and get their pound of flesh if things don't work out with other charges.

Offline Dannyboy53

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Re: Hypothetical build
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2014, 09:52:23 PM »
Justin I suspect that is about all this law is used for, I doubt there are very many folks in the BATFE that knows everything in that conglomeration. It's a nightmare!