Which Stamps Were Made Before or Afer Final Polishing?

[martin08]

Just like the title asks.

[running-man]

This is a good one M08! 
I'd vote:

/26\ and 五六式 certainly look like they may have been done before as they have zero raised edges.

The S/N looks like after as the edges are quite raised and still relatively crisp.

The B and import stamp look quite a bit different than the S/N, but it could be that they used a hydraulic press to stamp those since the import is such a long stamp with multiple letters and not individual stamps with a hammer like may have been done early on with import stamps or with the S/N. 

For that matter the /26\ and 五六式 could have been done the same way.  By 10 mil I'm sure they were no longer hand stamping these features into the receivers, it was likely semi-automated with a dedicated press, stamp, anvil (to keep the receiver from deforming), and positioning jig.

[Boris Badinov]

or...
CSI: Jianshe

Uneven top-to-bottom wear on the /26\ seems to suggest that the BR wasn't removed from the stock during polishing.

[martin08]

You folks can see the stamps, but can't 'feel' them.

So, utilizing the sense of touch, here is my take.

The stamps which can be felt, from left to right are:

1.  Type 56
2.  Eight digit serial number
3.  Import mark.

Stamps which can't be felt are:

1.  /26\
2.  B

Since you folks can't touch it, take a close look at the polishing marks.  The stamps which can't be felt have perfectly straight polishing lines across the stamp.  And the stamps which can be felt have distorted polishing lines across the stamp.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I dunno...  Would have to say its inconclusive.

Like RM says, there could simply be a dif method in which they were applied, and how deep or how much pressure was involved.  I have noticed the serial (hand stamped it would appear) is almost always deeper and having more raising of the edges as a result.

Add to that.......   I can clearly see a raised edge on the 'B' as its shadow nicely highlights. 

[running-man]

The problem with the B being done before polishing that I see is shown in this great photo:



I see continuous marks going horizontally across this image.  Either the receiver was polished before both marks were made, or after both marks were made.  I don't think that the B was polished and the S/N was not, there's no discontinuity between the marking between the two like there should be if one was polished and the other not...

I wonder if the unmarked top portion of the B was the result of a damaged/broken stamp? 

Good exercise M08!   What are your thoughts on it?

[martin08]

As you may have surmised, my focus is most definitely on the B-stamp.

I included the second angle which shows the possible shadow, as LC highlighted.

I just couldn't resist the curiosity after running my finger along all the stamps.  I wish I could take a macro of a macro, though.  But my camera is at its limit for detail.  The break in the top portion of the B would be nice to see a little closer, whether any polished metal might create a ledge over the imprint.   I 'think' I can see it with my loupe, but I can't say with conclusive authority.

[martin08]

Also, it is quite evident, both with a loupe and from the pics, that the metal inside the deeper serial numbers has reddish brown corrosion starting in the exposed metal.  The serial number is absolutely applied after final polishing and bluing.

[martin08]

Well, I tried to get a better macro of the B, and may have succeeded.  It is definitely a sharper picture with better detail.  You might need to enlarge on your own.

At the right portion of the broken die, you may be able to see the overhang of metal that I can see with the loupe.  If I am correct, the B was stamped before final polish, which was done in a left to right direction.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I dunno Matt...  Looks to me like there is a raised area at the end of a break in the stamp.   But who knows!





And that big ole raised lip on the left of the B....  All tells me it was stamped after.

[martin08]

Yeah, there is probably no way to draw conclusions from one sample.  It would be interesting to see at least a half dozen more with the suffix stamp, and with similar detail.

To be more defined, I don't think we can judge before/after by the deep milling machine marks.  I don't think that the final buff would have polished those deep lines out, nor all of the raised edges such as we can also see on the Type-56 characters.

The raised area which you highlighted cannot be felt, nor the raised edge on the B.  But there is an 'overhang' of metal at the broken die border.  Perhaps the die broke on this specific strike, and lifted a tiny portion of the surface when withdrawn?

We definitely need more examples.  I'll have to dig through the SKS pile to see if I have any similar suffix serials.

Update:  Just checked all 12 Chinese /26\ guns with import marks, and 5 w/o import marks, and I don't have any more with serial suffix.

[newchi]

I would say the "things we know" stamps would all be done before.  IE, we know we are working in factory /26\.
The things we dont know (until it passes qc) would be serial # etc

[Loose}{Cannon]

Newchi may be on to something.    I am curious as to what can be learned from other specimens as well. 

[Justin Hell]

Things like this kind of have bugged me for awhile, like the added letter suffixes...shouldn't we see missing bluing if they were added later?  The obvious dot matrix type import stamps I have had shone like the sun until I cold blued them into submission...yeah CAI, I am talkin' 'bout you.

For that matter, all of these could just be from different pressures used when stamping, final polishing would leave the same variations between lighter and firmer strikes...just to a lesser degree for either after polishing.  If anything, raised portions would seem to lend to just a different time of being stamped, vs other stamps.  Like....arsenal/designation at one point, serial and suffix at another.....tack on an import mark even later.  The pressures used for various stamps seem to me would be the reason you could feel them vs others.

As easily as you can scratch the bluing on a brand new commercial SKS, just by the pressure fit latches scratching the surface....you would think pounding a stamp in place would cause bluing loss if it came after bluing.  At what point does bluing happen?  Is it possible that every Norinco was reblued after being 'made' by them? I highly doubt it....I think some stamping methods differ from others, and might not be as damaging to the surface as others. It would seem like a highly raised character on a stamp, that did not get the impact to allow the base of the raised portion to make enough contact would leave 'volcanoed' stamps...whereas a less prominent stamp with enough pressure for the base to make contact to the surrounding areas would not allow for the raised edges around the characters as much...since there would be more of an impression effect vs. a squishing one.

I think I know why I don't sleep much at night...it's this place.

[martin08]

Stamping methods would certainly be needed to be taken into account.  Observing the results of the factory stamp with no raised edges or cut into bluing vs the serial number with pronounced raised edges and bluing loss, we can all agree that different applications were utilized - Roll or die press stamp for the /26\, and individual number dies and a hammer for the serial.

My purpose for taking such detailed shots of the B suffix is that there has always been the 'internet' explanation that the suffix was added because of either a duplicate serial or by the importer.  I would have surmised that the B should be the 'Freshest' stamp, other than the import mark.  But I could just see no evidence that the B was added by the importer.

Now, the Norinco 'refinish' seems an interesting angle to consider.  But this one looks like it is original factory finish without reblue.   Although the stock was probably lightly redone, as it has a couple of plugs, and finish is quite smooth with shellac running into stock marks and serial, and new shellac over previous flaking.

Here is the rest of the gun for context.