Author Topic: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet  (Read 1668 times)

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Offline reloader762

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New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« on: August 21, 2016, 10:53:10 AM »
Back at Christmas I got a new to me 1933 Tula HEX receiver 91/30. The stock was in fairly bad shape finish wise but the bore is good and bluing just needed so minor touchups and bolt needed a good polishing. While I was at it I cork bedded the action and refinished the stock to a blonde finish instead of the red shellac finish.



The Lee .312" 185 gr. RN. is what I plan on shooting in this Mosin rifle as it's a pretty close match to the Lyman 314299 but much cheaper. I'm casting this bullet from COWW's + 2% Tin and water quenched,final bullet dia. measured at .314". The end result is going to be to push these up clost to 2K fps. with some H4895 reduced loads in the end but for right now I'm going to use my old tried and true Alliant 2400 just to get some test done.

Part of the Lee 185 gr. mould block,nice mould for the money.



A few of the bullets I cast up,no lube was applied when the photo was taken.



I was able to get out a few weeks ago an shoot some test loads in my Mosin I had reworked a couple months back and try out the new Lee .312" 185 gr. RN bullet I had cast up. The bullets were cast from Wheel Weights + about 2% Tin and quenched straight from the mould. The next day they were sized to .314" in my RCBS Lube A Matic using Lars 2500+ and Gator gas checks.

Cases were once fired PPU brass I got at the LGS they get from the local gun range. I full length resized the case this time around and trimmed them to proper length and resized the case neck using my NOE .312" expander plug. The throat is pretty deep on this rifle so I couldn't seat the bullet out as far as I wanted so I seated it half way on the middle driving band for this test load. I used 19.0 grs. of Alliant 2400 and Winchester LR primers.

For this test I loaded up 25 rds. as I have installed a MOJO rear aperture sight on the rifle an the original factory post so I knew it would take a few rds. to get it on target an leave the rest to chrono and do some accuracy test. I set my target up at 50 yds. which is a far as I can shoot in the back yard range,below is the final one of two five shot groups from day’s shooting and I had another target with the shots in the orange square area once I made the final sight adjustment but was unable to retrieve it before the weather moved in. After firing those 25 rds. the bore was nice and shiny with only a few specks of burnt powder residue here and there. I'm pretty pleased with the initial results an will be trying a couple different loads in a few weeks as well as a couple more of the 2400 loads in larger increments as I have room to increase it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 06:00:26 PM by reloader762 »

Offline running-man

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2016, 12:37:31 PM »
Great stuff 762!  I'm not a huge Mosin fan, but I think you did a fine job on that stock.

Is there a structural reason with these cast bullets not to take them above 2k fps?  Excessive pressures due to bullet weight? Lead fouling? Accuracy?  Just curious, I've no experience with them at all, but would love to dip my feet in that pond one of these days...
      

Offline reloader762

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2016, 02:12:34 PM »
Great stuff 762!  I'm not a huge Mosin fan, but I think you did a fine job on that stock.

Is there a structural reason with these cast bullets not to take them above 2k fps?  Excessive pressures due to bullet weight? Lead fouling? Accuracy?  Just curious, I've no experience with them at all, but would love to dip my feet in that pond one of these days...

Thanks for asking that question,cast bullets are different animals than jacketed bullets when it come to  how they are affected by internal ballistics.
 
With cast lead, Max velocity vs. accuracy come down to a couple things barrel twist rate,bullet length / weight as well as sufficient lube and the bullet BHN / alloy strength to withstand the load pressure.  The Mosin & SKS rifle both share the same barrel twist which is basically 1:10 twist ie the bullet makes one complete revolution ever 10 inches.  Just like any other rifle the barrel twist play a big part in what weight ranges and how fast you can shoot that bullet at it's Max RPM  which is derived by MV x twist rate and still have stability / accuracy an it not come apart ie blow up due to jacket failure.

The Mosins with it's 1"10 twist bore basically limites you to around 2K fps. with a cast lead bullet as it's structure is not the same as a jacketed bullet in density and hardness,you can blow up a cast lead bullet spinning it to fast by overdriving it just the same as you can a jacketed bullet but a jacket  bullet in the mosin can be shot at a much higher velocity / RPM than the cast lead because of it structure which give it the ability to handle a higher RPM. 

If you want to shot cast lead faster your going to have to use a slower twist barrel to begin with like a 1:12 or 1:14,the slower the twist the longer bullet you can use as well as slower powder to push the velocity higher.   I have a couple friends that have built 30-06 & .308 rifles with slow twist barrels,mixed harder alloys and had a custom mould designed that fit the rifles throat correctly and shoot gas checked cast lead bullet at factory velocity with as good or better accuracy than factory ammo.

As to fouling that never has to be an issue as long as you have a decent bore and have a good bullet fit with the proper strength alloy to match the pressure.   Fouling has never been an issue with cast lead for me in any of my handguns or rifle.  I found in the early days of my cast bullet shooting that commercial cast bullets were too hard or too small or both for most applications.  In some cases they work very well but for me not so much.

A couple of interesting reads.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/calculating-bullet-rpm-spin-rates-stability/

https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/cast-bullets/7986-high-velocity-cast-bullets-what-i-have-learned-and-observed

https://30eca00a039f-002391.vbulletin.net/forum/cast-bullets/192-cast-bullet-stability
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:12:34 AM by reloader762 »

Offline reloader762

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2018, 02:43:38 PM »
Still developing a good load for my 1933 HEX Tula Mosin 91/30,  I'm shooting a 215 gr. .314" gas check bullet lubed with LARS 2500+ I had Tom over at Accurate Molds cut for me.  I had two ladder test loads five rds. each with 33.0 and 34.0 grs.  of H-4895.  The 33.0 gr. load shot really well but the 34.0 gr. loads was excellent and I still have room to go, next outing I will load up some 35 & 36 gr. loads as well as some PC'ed version of the same loads and see how they compare.  Once I settle on a load with good velocity and accuracy to match I put the loads through the chrono.  The 34.0 gr. load is definitely a keeper regardless.




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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2018, 11:02:32 PM »
All great stuff!

I have some 165gr  non gas checked swaged bullets I need to slow down the speed on and test out in my "bench sks" with the 1919 barrel.  Not sure where to start with the powders I have on hand. 
      
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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2018, 06:21:35 PM »
All great stuff!

I have some 165gr  non gas checked swaged bullets I need to slow down the speed on and test out in my "bench sks" with the 1919 barrel.  Not sure where to start with the powders I have on hand.

What powders do you have to work with and are the bullets lubed?   Being that those are swaged bullets your probably going to have the keep the velocity in the subsonic range which is fine and fairly easy to do with the right powder in the pistol / shotgun burn rate.  Trailboss might even be a good powder although I have no experience with it but I've heard it good for low velocity loads.
 

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2018, 10:16:41 PM »
I only have a few rifle powders.... No pistol.    :-\  let me look in a few days when I return home.

No lube, but I can likely lube them. 
      
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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2018, 07:01:11 PM »
Ok,  I have....

Hodgdon H322
Hodgdon Varget
IMR 4198

And the bullets are actually 160gr not 165gr.  (Forgot)  Barllel is .308 1919a4 with RH 1 in 10 twist




« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 07:15:17 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
      
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Offline reloader762

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2018, 07:48:34 PM »
Those bullets are already lubed according to the web sit with their own special blend of clear lube.  The only problem is being that they are swagged bullets, too soft and probably undersized as well as lead bullet cast or otherwise should be between .001 an .002" over groove dia. of the bore.  They may do Ok if you keep the velocity on the low side under gas check velocity at around 1400 fps. but I can't promise you they want lead the bore.

Of the powders you have IMR-4198 would be the one to use.  Lyman cast bullet handbooks list 16.0 grs.  of IMR-4198 with 160 gr. cast lead bullets with a MV of 1327 fps. Try a few with that load an see how they do.  Most likely you will have to cycle the action by hand as I don't think you will generate enough port pressure to cycle the action but it might work as I have a Chinese SKS that cycles great at 1300 fps. MV using 15.0 grs. of Alliant 2400 with excellent accuracy.

Looks like a nice bullet to try your hand at paper patching.  Then you could push the velocity up towards the 1800 fps. range, working up towards the Max charge weight of  20.3 grs. of 4198 using the 160 gr. bullet, but I wouldn't go there with that bullet as is.

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 12:27:21 AM »
The rifle is no longer semi auto. 

From what I understand, these bullets should go somewhere around 1700fps before having issues with no gas check.  Wouldn't it ultimately come down to the alloy?

Sounds good on the 4198....  I'll see what happens with some 16 to 18gr tests.  What increments would you do?
      
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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2018, 07:44:24 AM »
I read the specs on the bullet but that kind of a blanket statement with lots of info as to what rifle and what load was used missing.  With lead bullets fit is king if the bullet is to small for the dia. of the bore it's going to lead no matter what alloy is used, so in your case if you want to go forward I would start at the bottom on the load range with about 3 to 5 rds. an see how they do.  If the bore doesn't lead I would only go up one half grain at a time as with cast lead half grain increments seem to give best results. 

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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2018, 05:10:20 PM »
The bore on this barrel is a .308....  1919a4 barrel.  Ill have to see if I can get an accurate measurement of the bullets.
      
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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2018, 08:20:22 PM »
Just an FYI but I take it that you know those bullets are made for  Schuetzen rifles, the swadged lead bullet is actually seated into the throat of the rifle and a primed and charged case with a sized wad is placed between the bullet and powder.  Here is a read on the subject https://www.assra.com/getting_started.htm


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Re: New Mosin / New Cast Bullet
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 11:06:28 AM »
Yup, I did know this.  My retired father shoots and collects them.  thumb1
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.