Author Topic: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production  (Read 34259 times)

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Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2015, 05:48:35 PM »
Great pics and history!  thumb1

It is rather homely looking but that doesn't mean I wouldn't want one. The Chinese industrial sector in the 20th century was good at reverse engineering and producing items but not very good at original design.

Given the issues the PLA had with this platform I wonder if the designer spent the last years of his life planting rice in Mao's personal paddy...or perhaps just serving as a source of fertilizer  :o

Offline firstchoice

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2015, 04:54:47 AM »
  Excellent write-up on the Type 63 LC! As a newer member of the board, I'm just finding all these great treasure troves of information.
  I've collected three of the four (that I know of) variations of the Type 63 20rd magazines.

  The top mag is the Type 63 20rd steel magazine. The middle is the Type 63 20rd black "plastic" magazine. (I'm not sure of actual material composition) The bottom magazine is a Hungarian 20rd. steel "Tanker" magazine, shown for comparison. I was trying to show the bolt hold-open feature of the Type 63 magazine.

  Still looking for the "piece de resistance":

  I pulled a couple of pics from the web when I was looking for info about the Type 63. I'm sure you've already run across them, LC. If so, just scrap them.
  A Type 63 with underfolding stock:

  And a Type 63 with the bayonet extended. I can see why they spoke so much about the use of the bayonet in that article that you translated. Looks as long as one of the old Mosin Nagant's with the bayo attached! Ouch!


  While reading that translated article, I started envisioning Yoda narrating it. In translation, lost may you be.  :)

  firstchoice

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2015, 09:27:15 AM »
I have seen the UF pic but I'm not sure if its a real production variation, prototype, or Chinese bubba.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2016, 02:44:03 PM »
  Excellent write-up on the Type 63 LC! As a newer member of the board, I'm just finding all these great treasure troves of information.
  I've collected three of the four (that I know of) variations of the Type 63 20rd magazines.

  The top mag is the Type 63 20rd steel magazine. The middle is the Type 63 20rd black "plastic" magazine. (I'm not sure of actual material composition) The bottom magazine is a Hungarian 20rd. steel "Tanker" magazine, shown for comparison. I was trying to show the bolt hold-open feature of the Type 63 magazine.

  Still looking for the "piece de resistance":

  I pulled a couple of pics from the web when I was looking for info about the Type 63. I'm sure you've already run across them, LC. If so, just scrap them.
  A Type 63 with underfolding stock:

  And a Type 63 with the bayonet extended. I can see why they spoke so much about the use of the bayonet in that article that you translated. Looks as long as one of the old Mosin Nagant's with the bayo attached! Ouch!


  While reading that translated article, I started envisioning Yoda narrating it. In translation, lost may you be.  :)

  firstchoice

The type 81 also came with 20 rounds mags along with 30 round mags. Same bolt hold open. The type 81 semi auto should be getting imported later this year into canada as a semi auto. Hopefully these mags will start coming in as well. Something to search for 
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2016, 02:30:57 AM »
Can anyone confirm that china made semi auto only versions of the type 63 for export? I've heard rumours that New Zealand and Australia were once markets for these semi auto pieces. NZ may still have them but I'm sure the Australian gun grab finished them off there.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 09:00:06 AM »
Yes...  There were very very few imported to the US.   Like 25-50 iirc.   Huge coin now.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 09:10:24 AM »
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?192039-Chinese-Type-81-S

He's wrong though....  The T81 was more of a stamped VZ58 clone.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 09:31:57 AM »
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?192039-Chinese-Type-81-S

He's wrong though....  The T81 was more of a stamped VZ58 clone.

The type 81 is the next step in the refinement of the type 63. To say it is a vz58 clone isn't accurate either, just as much as the type 81 isn't an sks or ak. It was inspired by those designs, but just happens to share features found in the vz58 piston system. The type 81 bolt group is not vz58 like at all.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 09:34:48 AM »
Yes...  There were very very few imported to the US.   Like 25-50 iirc.   Huge coin now.

Were the receivers purpose made semi auto receivers or were they converted from being full auto into semi auto only?

Canadian law issue, hence the question.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 11:10:47 AM »
Looks purpose made to me. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 11:27:40 AM »
Looks purpose made to me.

And now I need to find one. Any other names for them on the civilian market? China seems to like to give different names to semi auto variations.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 01:21:52 PM »
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?192039-Chinese-Type-81-S

He's wrong though....  The T81 was more of a stamped VZ58 clone.

The type 81 is the next step in the refinement of the type 63. To say it is a vz58 clone isn't accurate either, just as much as the type 81 isn't an sks or ak. It was inspired by those designs, but just happens to share features found in the vz58 piston system. The type 81 bolt group is not vz58 like at all.

Its nothing like the t63 at all other then maybe the bolt.. The rest of it has more in common with the vz then any other gun, including the arrangement of the rsb being part of the forward receiver/trunion. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 08:58:31 PM »
Type 63 Bolt and Carrier...



Type 81 Bolt and Carrier...



Type 63 Disassembled with Gas Piston visible...



Type 81 Gas Piston...



Pretty close...
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 10:48:20 PM »
The bolt is similar.... The rest, not so much.   

Gas system.

Placement/location of the spring.
Rear sight block is part of and incorporated into the receiver.
Handguard arrangement etc is very dif..

Design.

The VZ58 being developed prior to 1958 and full production starting in 1958 could be the inspiration for the gas system of the T63.... Not the other way around. So the gas system design (to me) stems from the VZ in that it has the separation of the carrier and piston.

Bolt.

The rotating bolt is also not indigenous to the T63. Most notably the AK which is just like this other then the separation of the piston.

My thoughts.

Pistol grip, AK/VZ
Two peice stock, AK/VZ
Internal hammer etc parts, AK/VZ
Gas system, VZ/63
Bolt, AK/63
Receiver/RSB configuration, VZ

VZ design related on 5 outta 6 major design factors.

Its basically a mutt, but I see more VZ and AK in the t81 then chinas other failed mutt (63) which copied other designs to begin with.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 10:52:43 PM by Loose}{Cannon »
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2016, 02:00:59 AM »
Hence why I believe it to be it's own design. Hardly any gun after the 60s is its own design. Everybody just steals from everyone else.

On a side note I must say these debates are better than the other forum I frequent. Currently there is a wonderful thread with a great many people saying a gun bubba'd to take ak mags is an sks-d too, because apparently sks-d is a generic term.

I know you guys will understand haha.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2016, 07:53:39 AM »
 :))

Its all good.... 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline running-man

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2016, 11:46:22 PM »
I saw that thread on CGN fenceline, I'm almost embarrassed for what you've got to deal with!  Very reminiscent of dealing with a certain guy on SKSboards who swears there are only SKS Ds and SKS Ms and nothing else. (Or as the old Ghostbusters line goes: "There is no Dana, only Zuul!")

For what it's worth, we've got the most accurate (in my opinion) info for Chinese commercial variants on the net: http://chinesesks.weebly.com/commercial.html.
      

Offline fenceline

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2016, 11:59:04 PM »
Years of cheap prices have made the average shooter up here think that the SKS is a cheap gun.  Some of the talk in the LGS would drive you nuts.  I heard one girl say "I crossed over into the dark side" to which a guy replied "Why would anyone buy those cheap guns?"

I just shake my head.  Cheap because they are surplus and plentiful, not because they were cheap quality.

The amount of misinformation here is ridiculous.
RUSSIA SKS45: Tula 49, 50, 51 x2, 53 x2, 54, 57(И); Izhevsk 53, 54
POLAND SKS45: "W.P." Marked Tula 52
CHINA TYPE 56 CARBINE: /26\ 60 "S", 61, 64, 65, 66, 79; /UK5?\ 69; /256\ 70; /316\ 70; [0138] Stamped Receiver 70 x2; /306\ 71; /416\ 公安 73; /0412\ 78
CHINA Civilian: SKS-D (XZ), "SKS-D", Cdn Para x2
N. KOREA: T63
YUGO PAP M59: 66 C-Series x2; PAP M59/66a1: 73 J, 83 T
ALBANIA 561: 78

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2016, 08:41:11 AM »
Wonder how much an sks would cost to produce and buy if commercially made today.   bat1
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline running-man

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Re: The Chinese T63 And Its Role In Jianshe T56 Production
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2016, 09:46:30 AM »
In the US: $1000+, and that's if they were mass produced.  Onesie twosie would easily run $5k in just machining costs not counting material costs and the time to generate usable drawings/models. 

It's funny, cheap labor is what enabled the Chinese to produce so many in such a short timeframe, but them being so labor intensive is what makes the design too cost prohibitive to produce today.