Author Topic: Enfield No5 Mk1  (Read 9917 times)

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Offline Greasemonkey

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Enfield No5 Mk1
« on: January 29, 2017, 10:39:37 PM »
Years ago I bought one on a whim...sadly it was a commercially altered one, a Santa Fe converted No4.. it left the ranks, traded off. I did finally acquire the real deal, a true No5. I'm guessing it's been rebuilt, pretty much devoid of marks and coated in black paint. But, the features of the No5, lightening cuts etc. are all present and accounted for, unlike the previous fake I had. The bolt matches the receiver, I tried many ways to get a receiver serial shot, but it's covered in paint. The bore is shiny and typical of an Enfield, the action is smooth as butter..  Only down side is someone dicked the stock and the handguard is missing. Which considering what I got it for, I ain't gonna complain, it gives me something to find and a fun project. And in the end, it's still a No5. thumb1

Promises to be another real shoulder pounder... thumb1 I'm looking forward to it. :)







You can just make out the serial just in front of the screw under the paint.




I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2017, 10:57:29 PM »
Love the stalwart British service rifles of the Lee-Enfield lineage. That one will definitely make itself felt upon sparking off a case full of cordite or a more modern .303 load.

Midway has old WWII era British MkVII cartridges for about $0.38 per round right now.

Offline armedhippie

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 01:14:56 AM »
Nice score man  thumb1 Since these dang Enfields have started following me home, a No5 is definitely on my radar now.
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Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 09:59:02 AM »
Here's the link to the WWII surplus UK manufactured .303.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/976120/military-surplus-uk-ammunition-303-british-174-grain-full-metal-jacket-berdan-primed-corrosive-loaded-in-ammo-can-of-250-rounds

They also have newer POF Pakistani for $0.04 per round less, but I'd grab the U.K. ammo.

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 10:02:45 AM »
I traded some rehab work on an SKS for a Mk1 in .308cal. I know it is .308 as the barrel is stamped .308 and a .308 chambers. Mine is also covered in black paint? What does the black paint signify on the Enfields, rebuild? I'm debating on "cleaning" it up?

Marcus
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Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 10:43:32 AM »
Many of the No4 and No5 Lee-Enfields were originally issued with a durable black paint, Suncorite. Your RFI Rifle Factory, Ishapore (Indian) .308 also came originally with black paint but their paint was not as durable it seems.

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 11:29:59 AM »
Many of the No4 and No5 Lee-Enfields were originally issued with a durable black paint, Suncorite. Your RFI Rifle Factory, Ishapore (Indian) .308 also came originally with black paint but their paint was not as durable it seems.

Does the .308 cal make it worth more, less, or no difference? What do I need to look for on it?I likely will never shoot it. Should I "slick" it up and make it look new again? Thanks

Marcus
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Teddy R.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 11:50:26 AM »
Many of the No4 and No5 Lee-Enfields were originally issued with a durable black paint, Suncorite. Your RFI Rifle Factory, Ishapore (Indian) .308 also came originally with black paint but their paint was not as durable it seems.

Does the .308 cal make it worth more, less, or no difference? What do I need to look for on it?I likely will never shoot it. Should I "slick" it up and make it look new again? Thanks

Marcus

I'd leave it as is to retain the most value to a collector.  A person who wants a really good shooting rifle in 7.62 NATO will probably look for something else anyhow.  Some will pay a slight premium (about $50-100, i.e., around $350-400) for the RFI 2A or 2A1 7.62x51 vs. the most commonly found British No1 MkIII* rifles (Enfield or BSA) in .303.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 12:24:14 PM »
Quote
Does the .308 cal make it worth more, less, or no difference? What do I need to look for on it?I likely will never shoot it. Should I "slick" it up and make it look new again? Thanks

Marcus
All of the Ishapore 7.62 rifles I have run across has had the black paint or some remnants of it somewhere, I would leave it.

The Ishapore 7.62 usually doesn't carry the clout a true .303 British does because they were made from '65 to '70 or so and not really used in any "wars", just maybe some inter nation conflict and turmoil. They don't carry the history, but they were manufactured on the same equipment as the British variant. India was a British commonwealth state back in the day. The 2A has a quoted production of about 50,000, everything else is 2A1s. There is also one slight difference in the models, the 2A and 2A1. The rear sight calibration, the 2A rear sight is calibrated for the 303brit round, they adjusted and revised it in the 2A1. Also the Ishapore is like the Enfield, subject to headspace issues and can be remedied buy replacing the bolt head. Also it's recommend not to shoot hot loaded ammo, I've used .308 reduced recoil, plain WWB ammo and at times Wolf 308, along with regular NATO ammo with no issues. This is one rifle along with the FR8s and other known 7.62 NATO rifles, I own a Forester no-go guage, thus far, none have failed.

None the less, it is a collectors piece and slowly has risen in price over time, usually selling in the 400/450 range at some of the recent shows I've seen.

My 1965 Ishapore 2A with the 303 caibrated sight, copied from the Mk1 No3. Goes out to 2000 meters.





My 1967 Ishapore 2A1 with the revised calibrated 7.62 sight. Same blade, but now it goes to just 800 meters, also side by side the elevation raises at a different rate.




Typical marking for a Ishapore.

I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 01:11:07 PM »
1965 was the transition year from the 2A to the 2A1 model. The 2A was only made in 1964 and 65 and is apparently confined to the A serial block. I have a 1965 2A1 (D block), so the same year as GMs 2A. A rifle with a B block serial number would be very interesting since they've never been observed/recorded that I'm aware of.

Note added in editing: I was just looking at the RFI 2A/2A1 SN tracking thread over at Gunboards and the B block has been observed, they are 2A1's.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 02:39:08 PM by Phosphorus32 »

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2017, 04:09:21 AM »
Thanks for the info. I need to look at mine again and what it says on it.

Marcus
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Teddy R.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2017, 11:51:21 AM »
1965 was the transition year from the 2A to the 2A1 model. The 2A was only made in 1964 and 65 and is apparently confined to the A serial block. I have a 1965 2A1 (D block), so the same year as GMs 2A. A rifle with a B block serial number would be very interesting since they've never been observed/recorded that I'm aware of.

Note added in editing: I was just looking at the RFI 2A/2A1 SN tracking thread over at Gunboards and the B block has been observed, they are 2A1's.

I took a quick peek through that out of curiosity.. not the whole thing, but 2As seem to top out about 53,000 or so in serial, then 2A1 production starts, which goes into double letter prefix serials, like AAxxxx and such. So I guess the roughly 50k 2A production is plausible.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2017, 12:26:27 PM »
1965 was the transition year from the 2A to the 2A1 model. The 2A was only made in 1964 and 65 and is apparently confined to the A serial block. I have a 1965 2A1 (D block), so the same year as GMs 2A. A rifle with a B block serial number would be very interesting since they've never been observed/recorded that I'm aware of.

Note added in editing: I was just looking at the RFI 2A/2A1 SN tracking thread over at Gunboards and the B block has been observed, they are 2A1's.

I took a quick peek through that out of curiosity.. not the whole thing, but 2As seem to top out about 53,000 or so in serial, then 2A1 production starts, which goes into double letter prefix serials, like AAxxxx and such. So I guess the roughly 50k 2A production is plausible.

Yup, about 54K 2As and perhaps a maximum of 290K 2A1s (assuming the I and O letter blocks don't exist)

Go to Post 84 for the recently updated compilation of data
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?263714-Ishapore-2A-2A1-Serial-Number-thread/page2

Offline running-man

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2017, 01:08:22 PM »
Nice job there P32, very nice job indeed!   thumb1
The questions you have on the Y's and whatnot are very similar to what we've been dealing with here on things like the Type 56 ghost -> /26\ -> 2 mil transition, Letter gun prefixes, etc.

Lists and asking people to post their numbers is an excellent start, but at some point errors in the data get introduced and the lists get corrupted.  At that point, my experience is that photos are your best friend.  You can go back and verify any mistakes users might have made and replace with known good data. 

For this reason I've temporarily shuttered the Chinese SKS survey for the time being.  Version 2.0 will come online soon in 2017 and we will only accept entries with photo documented proof.  Too much handwaving and shady data entries by people who are either dicking around with us (this is what ultimately sunk NoytaCCCP/Kurgan's Russian registry listings) or simply don't know what they are looking at to be relied on much more than a very loose confirmation that a particular series or feature exists. 
      

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2017, 02:36:01 PM »
Nice job there P32, very nice job indeed!   thumb1
The questions you have on the Y's and whatnot are very similar to what we've been dealing with here on things like the Type 56 ghost -> /26\ -> 2 mil transition, Letter gun prefixes, etc.

Lists and asking people to post their numbers is an excellent start, but at some point errors in the data get introduced and the lists get corrupted.  At that point, my experience is that photos are your best friend.  You can go back and verify any mistakes users might have made and replace with known good data. 

For this reason I've temporarily shuttered the Chinese SKS survey for the time being.  Version 2.0 will come online soon in 2017 and we will only accept entries with photo documented proof.  Too much handwaving and shady data entries by people who are either dicking around with us (this is what ultimately sunk NoytaCCCP/Kurgan's Russian registry listings) or simply don't know what they are looking at to be relied on much more than a very loose confirmation that a particular series or feature exists.

Thanks! 

I'm sure many of the caveats could be cleared up with a clear photo or two.  I didn't start this survey, simply updated the list, so unfortunately, it's just based on accurate -- or not  chuckles1 -- reading and typing of the numbers from an individuals firearm.

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2017, 10:35:08 AM »
OK guys, help me out here. What do I have?  On the right side of the shoulder stock band it says, RIFLE, 7.62mm2A, R.F.I., 1965. There is some kind of a crest above the word 'rifle'. The Ser# looks like "A 27692". The left side of the receiver says, PW Arms, Redmo, (probably should be Redmond, Washington state), Wa, Enfield 2ABA, .308, I.O.F. India. The is a number in white paint on the left side of the stock that says 102. I'm guessing that is a rack number? It has the ladder front site marked 2-20. Al the numbers match. The black paint really sucks on it though. It's very rough. Whoever painted it was drunk or high or both. It is in need of a very through cleaning. Bore is crisp and sharp.

Marcus
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Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2017, 10:58:06 AM »
OK guys, help me out here. What do I have?  On the right side of the shoulder stock band it says, RIFLE, 7.62mm2A, R.F.I., 1965. There is some kind of a crest above the word 'rifle'. The Ser# looks like "A 27692". The left side of the receiver says, PW Arms, Redmo, (probably should be Redmond, Washington state), Wa, Enfield 2ABA, .308, I.O.F. India. The is a number in white paint on the left side of the stock that says 102. I'm guessing that is a rack number? It has the ladder front site marked 2-20. Al the numbers match. The black paint really sucks on it though. It's very rough. Whoever painted it was drunk or high or both. It is in need of a very through cleaning. Bore is crisp and sharp.

Marcus

You have a Royal Factory Ishapore (RFI) Lee-Enfield Model 2A in 7.62 NATO built in 1965 and later imported by PW Arms.  The 102 is a rack number, as you surmised.  The symbol on the right wrist is the Ashok, four lions sitting back to back (you can only see three) that is the national symbol of India since 1950. Since it's the model 2A it has the earlier backsight from the SMLE (No1 MkIII*).

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2017, 11:53:11 AM »
I take it there isn't anything really special about it then? It is a fairly common Mk5 Enfield. What would be a estimated value? Thanks

Marcus
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Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2017, 12:06:24 PM »
Quote
It is a fairly common Mk5 Enfield.
It's not a Mk5, a No5 is what I originally posted, a Jungle Carbine in .303 British, the Ishapore 2A and 2A1 are more of a SMLE Mk III*


Ok.. P32.. what kind of action did these see, I know the India/Pakastani conflicts which seems to erupt randomly, it did in '65 and '71 seems the most likely. I've seen them toted as being police weapons as well. Like a lot of milsurps, some really rough examples exist, then once and a while, there is the one that looks untouched.

And I have yet to understand the magazines, one is a 10 rd one is 12 round, both have serials matching the rifle. :)
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline 1mlt

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Re: Enfield No5 Mk1
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2017, 12:38:44 PM »
Thanks
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