Author Topic: Importer Markings  (Read 8607 times)

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Offline SubCaliber

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Importer Markings
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:30:00 PM »
I know my rifle has been in country for some time and I suspect that's why but as far as I can tell it has no importer markings.  Is that from it's age or is there some other reason for this?  I have two Nagants with a similar lack of extra roll stamps and or etchings...

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 03:48:57 PM »
Some can be real hard to see, stamped very small, or in a very out of the way place, under the bayonet and such. Could also be one the importer stamped real light or might have missed all together.
Usually about 1968 is when the markings started, and no M59/66 was imported prior to that. Early import stamps were simple, maybe the country it was imported from.
A M59/66 is not a common bringback, I don't know of any off the top of my head, on the extreme off chance it is, there would be no way to prove it's providence without the DD603 forms. It becomes just a rifle with no import stamps and maybe a story. There are only a few weapons that can prove bringback status without papers, a Mum'ed Arisaka, a North Korean, East German or NVA SKS, a fully matching K98 might even stand on it own, and maybe a very small hand full of others

It's illegal, as in a federal offence to deface or obscure an importer stamp, so I'm not even going to go down that road.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2016, 03:53:02 PM by Greasemonkey »
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 03:58:39 PM »
The rifle is clearly not defaced in any way.  I've had a close look at every part and I don't see any such markings on any of them.  I don't think any of them has any real collector value.  The closes might be the 91/30 Nagant.  It has all matching numbers and a hex receiver.  Still probably worth less than an SKS these days. 

Given who I got them from (an older ex-coworker who was also retired Army.) if they were ever any sort of bring back of any kind I suspect he would have acquired them in Europe as that was where he was stationed for many years before returning to the US when he retired.  At most I suppose it's something he got over there and brought back with him and I am not even sure that's likely.  All I know is I see recently all the time with a lot of postings showing roll tamps on barrels and receivers and these have none of these.  There is some electro-pencil etching or similar of what looks like a part number on the bottom of the gas tube.  I just figured it was a before 1990 thing...

Now I am more curious I am going to give the Nagants a closer looking over.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 04:16:33 PM »
Nagant pistols are, depending...can bring money, a [SA] stamped on, an original Belgian, a very early Russian, one with papers and on and on.  Mosins, a Spanish Civil War Mosin would just have Made in USSR or Made in URRS, that was their common import stamp, alot were brought in without stamps.

It's tough to say, but with no papers, it's a story, one thats been recited many, many times and has cost alot of people money over less. The 'ol saying of one is buying the weapon, not the story come into play alot when the proof of bringback is no where to be found.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 04:48:52 PM »
There are a few Nagant revolver bringbacks from Europe; definitely rare.  Some Mosins were brought back from Vietnam. The 1960 Chinese Type 53s are another example in the limited category of bringbacks that don't necessarily need papers. Mosin bringbacks from Europe are rare, as far as I know. There are the SCW (Spanish Civil War) Mosin Nagants (and some other firearms) that have a "Made in USSR", "Made in URRS" or no importer applied stamp, as these came in prior to the 1968 GCA.  Country of original manufacture identifications were sometimes, but not universally, applied in that era.

I've never heard of M59/66 bringbacks either. The old import stamps were very small, frequently on the muzzle end of the barrel. On other firearms I've seen them under the barrel on the muzzle end, at or occasionally below the woodline on the receiver, and as small as 4-5 pt type.  If your mark is on the barrel it is likely even harder to see after rebluing.

Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 06:18:49 PM »
The Nagants are definitely Russian and marked as such... Tula if I recall.  The 91/30 is from 1938.  The M44 I don't think has the original stock since it is missing it's metal around the rear sling opening.  The 91/30 though is all legit matching.  I have them just because they were cheap and he needed the money at the time.  I don't plan on selling them.  I suspect if I did in ten years it would cost 3x as much or more to buy one again like happened with SKS's.

Perhaps I will yank them out and snap some pictures and see if you all can tell me if I am missing something.  Maybe my memory is just off I haven't looked at the Nagants closely in some time.  The SKS I just recently reblued and I went over every inch.  I find it hard to believe i missed anything on that one.

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 06:41:31 PM »
I'll be interested to see what you find on your Mosin Nagants  thumb1 We love pics  :)

The missing escutcheon (metal) on the rear sling slot of your M44 is a war time stock feature, so it doesn't preclude originality. The barrel date can be an indicator, but if it has refurbishment stigmas (very likely) then it's probably all mixed parts from the refurbishment process. It probably has a half escutcheon (metal on the bottom only) for the front sling slot.  A lot of Mosins are matching but 99% of them are force-matched during refurbishment.

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 07:15:15 PM »
Yea...yeah Pics....purdy please... explode1


One thing to be aware of.. an unmolested military weapon will always be worth more, fluff and buff can and usually will in many ways bring the price or value down as time goes, even on Mosins. Like P32 said, number matchy ones are usually a force match, a prime example of force matched ones are the Finnish variants. drool2 Even being forced matched, or scrubbed and reserialed prices won't overly change much on the Russians, Finns carry their own price range for their respective models as well.

Some variants like a M91 Dragoon or Cossack will even carry it's original features and be refurbed, these will be pretty pricey when found.

Here is an example, one of my Mosins, many different things going on.. it's one of 2 Dragoons in original form I have, still has the M91 style sight, dated 1924, and also the Made in USSR stamp, other features show it served in the Spanish Civil War. It's totally mismatched, but that has absolutely no effect in it's collectivity or resale price if it were to come to that.  Numbers on Lugers and Mausers are important for value, Mosins the serials sometimes don't carry as much weight in the end.

I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2016, 07:38:43 PM »
What kinda gun we talkin about here?  Yugo sks?
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2016, 08:18:37 PM »
I started out talking about a Yugo SKS but I have the same situation with a Nagant 91/30 and M44 all from the same source.

I just took some pics I of the 91/30 and I will upload them.  I will see if I can get some of the SKS as well...

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2016, 09:06:33 PM »
Post the sks pics here.... All portions... Under bayo etc.
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2016, 09:10:56 PM »
OK so I posted pics of the SKS elsewhere but here is the Nagant.  I was wrong it's 1932 not 1938.  I have obscured part of the SN, I just don't feel comfortable posting that online... 

All I have is indoor lighting and a camera phone handy to do this quick so here it is;



and the receiver pics, I brightened some up because they were quite dark in an attempt to show details...





Here are



There are cartouches in the recesses of the stock on both sides.  Are any of those marks importer marks?  I assume the "r" next to 1932 means it was refurbished at some point?  Maybe?   Also i didn't get a picture but as I look at it now the bolt as it is folded down and locked has some stamps on the top of the handle side.

Here is the bolt SN and mag bottom.  You'll have to take my word for it that the numbers are the same.  They are.





Here are the sides of the barrel on the end where exposed, I don't see any roll stamps there either... 





As for the SKS this is one side of the front I posted in another thread;



and this is the other I just took



and this is the side of the receiver with the SN:



There are no marking on the top or back of the dust cover or the other side of the receiver.  I don't think that is uncommon for the dust cover of a Yugo.  This thing had the SN on the stock, the receiver, and I think it's electro-penciled on the bolt but thats about it for SN's. 

So am I missing something on the Nagant?  Which is BTW my oldest rifle currently.  It gets cool points for me for just that even if I am not fond at all of the design if I am to be honest. 

Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2016, 09:13:54 PM »
Post the sks pics here.... All portions... Under bayo etc.

I was in the middle of the last marathon post when you replied.  I didn't get under the bayonet but the wife is calling so it will have to wait until tomorrow at this point.  I never really thought of it as odd until I got to looking at pics of other rifles recently and realized these don't seem to have those marks as far as I can tell. 

Offline Greasemonkey

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2016, 09:34:50 PM »
This area looks like a line of letters when I zoom in, maybe letters or something.. need a clear shot. Not all stamps are roll marks, some were electro-penciled, dot-matrix punched, laser etched and hand stamped.



The refurb stamp is just to the right of the wreath, the square with the line through it.



And again, just because it doesn't have an import stamp, don't mean it's a "bring back". There are instances where Century imported stuff in to Canada, that same stuff "could" have gotten jumbled up and some way found it's way here, Canada didn't have import stamps then.
I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse......

Leave the gun, take the cannoli.

I said I was an addict........I didn't say I had a problem

Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2016, 10:19:01 PM »
Nice rifle!  With regard to your refurbished 1932 Izhevsk (triangle with the arrow) M91/30, the Cyrillic g "г" is the first letter of года (goda), which means "of the year", 1932 in this case. Is there a serial number on the left side of the receiver? Sometimes the importer stamps one there.

This is an example of one of the older CAI import stamps. Many are less informative and more subtle than this.


Offline SubCaliber

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2016, 05:03:02 PM »
OK you guys rock and my eyes well, don't but with your input I did find markings on both rifles when held in actual sunlight from a window...


The SKS marking was indeed on the bottom of the barrel under the bayonet and cleaning rod on the rough section of the barrel.  This is the best pic I could get of it.





and Greasemonkey gets props for the Nagant as the marking is right where he circled.  I am actually flaberghasted that I didn't see it before.  That's what I get for posting without taking a close look first.  The SKS I can't believe I missed either to be honest.





I'm actually glad because for a bit there I was afraid I had ended up with something I should not have without them when I realized that it wasn't a common thing.




Offline Phosphorus32

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Re: Importer Markings
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2016, 06:32:56 PM »
Glad that's resolved  thumb1  I much prefer the old import stamp styles to the gaudy billboards that we have to put up with after the new requirements went into effect in 2002  fineprint  :))

It's not a problem to have a firearm without an import stamp or the importer's specifically applied serial number if they came into the country before that requirement was enacted (1968), or by other means (military bringback). It is illegal to deliberately obscure, deface or obliterate the serial number that has been applied by an importer  didnt do


BTW, at the risk of sounding persnickety  geezer1 , the rifle you have shown is referred to in the US as a Mosin, not a Nagant. What is commonly referred to as a Nagant is the famous 7 shot revolver with a unique gas seal mechanism, designed by Emile Nagant. In Russia this was the M1895. Other countries fielded different models of the same basic design.  The Mosin-Nagant lineage of rifles has only vestiges of Nagant's magazine follower design that was incorporated into Sergei Mosin's overall rifle design. By the time the M91 had evolved into the M91/30 (and M38 and M44), even that small contribution of Nagant's design was gone.