Soviet Re-arsenal re-barreling?

[Boris Badinov]

I just know for a fact you cannot index a barrel with the RSB in place, 

....
I agree (?) So, you would have to remove the barrel after indexing to attach and index the RSB?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you mean by "indexing"?


I would also like to point out that I am still curious to know what to look for regarding the determination of whether or not a barrel has been replaced or not? I am not arguing that it was impossible or unlikely--though llikely uncommon, even rare. I am only arguing that that rebarreling is impractical -- particularly with the addition of the chrome lined barrels and given the fact that the 1950's was a distinctly "cold" period for Soviet Red Army. Ergo, what need to replace what ain't even being used and abused?

Checking out for the afternoon.

Back this evening.

No offense taken. None intended.

[Loose}{Cannon]

So, you would have to remove the barrel after indexing to attach and index the RSB?

No Sir....   Im saying you have to index the barrel to the receiver and leave it there prior to installation of the RSB.  You do not have access to the lug flats with the RSB in place. The RSB also has to be rotationally aligned with the receiver OP rod hole and mated flush to the receiver.  Not until then can you align and install the gasblock and ultimately the FSB parallel to the bore axis.

[Loose}{Cannon]

They do the same deal with the crossbolts.   

Go look for numbers!

[Greasemonkey]

I would also like to point out that I am still curious to know what to look for regarding the determination of whether or not a barrel has been replaced or not? I am not arguing that it was impossible or unlikely--though llikely uncommon, even rare. I am only arguing that that rebarreling is impractical -- particularly with the addition of the chrome lined barrels and given the fact that the 1950's was a distinctly "cold" period for Soviet Red Army. Ergo, what need to replace what ain't even being used and abused?

Who is to say "when" exactly they were done, any of them, there is no tag that says "refurb completed on 11/13/1956, or 10/31/1967". Like the unknown many thousands of Mausers they refurbed captured in WWII. They could have been done in the 1960's, maybe as late as the 1970's. Look at all that happened say between 1955 and say 1975. Cuba, Vietnam, it was a busy time. They could have started prepping and stock piling weapons for WWIII.. rebuilding loaner weaponry for Communist satellite nations to use  Or... like modern day Molot, started refurbing these weapons using mass parts over stock of new and old parts for import in to the US and Canada for financial gains and make us argue when they were actually done.

The mating marks can be found on a number of rebarreled weapons m1903, m1917, K31s, MAS36s

I am only arguing that that rebarreling is impractical

Rebarreling has numerous benefits over building a totally new firearm, materials saving, adds a lower cost per unit which goes hand in hand with labor savings, less down time in the shop equals greater time a troop is armed, ready for action, allows for an easier parts logistics. It can, in the case of France, allow for incremental small upgrades and changes, such as the counter bore on the MAS36 barrel, which early rifles did not have. It can give an indication of mean time before failure for given use to help justify use of repaired rifle vs. upgrading to another type. A rifle that breaks is of no use to a military.

If it's so impractical... Why would Spain for example, totally rebarrel M1916 and M1943 Mausers... and produce the FR 7 and FR 8, Why would Brazil rebarrel m1908 Mausers and make a M1908/34... rebarreling rifles makes sense, again..... it happened right here in the US... a Winchester M1917 with a Remington barrel, An IBM M1 Carbine with a US Postalmeter barrel. Uncle Sam didn't throw a Garand receiver away cause the bore was blown out, he didn't smelt a M1903 receiver cause the rifling was gone. Does a Garand set up easier than a SKS...a Mauser still needs to be headspaced, the M1917 needs to be headspaced. But yet, they still rebarreled.

Britain FTR Enfieild rifles, get them back on the battle field. Finlands military, almost everything they had was Russian captured property, hundreds of thousands of rifles of Tula and Izhevsk decent, mostly all rebarreled in Finland with VKT, Sako, and Tikka made barrels and the reused receivers turned against their creators.

If rebarreling was so impractical.... many militarys would disagree.. everyone did it..

[newchi]

Hey Boris,

  Would it be likely that stocks would outlast barrels though? .. would a shot out gun have decent wood on it?

Maybe not, but the one Ivan rested up against the BMP while he was taking a leak, that then drove off and crushed the fsb/bayo/barrel probably did.

There are so many reasons for something to end up at refurbish its impossible to list.

[Justin Hell]

I have learned today that I will never break down an SKS that far....and based on how impractical it is to do....I wonder how common a practice rebarreling could have been.  It really doesn't seem to be worth the trouble.  Considering the brief period they were actively manufactured and the relatively 'cold' period that it was...I honestly cannot see them requiring service to that degree at all...ever.

In this case, I wonder if they tried chroming on leftover parts perhaps?  It does seem most likely they would do that immediately after rifling though...but based on the surface prep they did on the barreled receivers before BBQing them...among other parts....it wouldn't shock me if they could do it after partial assembly. 

Perhaps something considered for a time at refurb was chroming barreled receivers?  If it was overly labor intensive or just difficult to effectively do...it may have been a very short time they did it.

I have absolutely no basis to speculate upon though...you guys are far more educated on the subject.   I totally didn't consider having to remove the RSB in order to even begin unbarreling....and the indexing sounds like a major PITA.

It seems to me the robust nature of the SKS would require little to maintain, it seems as if rust proofing for storage was the main goal of refurbs anyway...the stocks seem to be the only questionable portion of them....stupid wood's lack of being metal and all.  I can see older weapons being used in wars and conflicts coming home and perhaps being extensively refurbished if a new replacement weapon had not recently been adopted.  At the time Russia had two...and the SKS obviously wasn't the winner.  Elegance didn't win over cheap easy mass production in the end...it seems a little off to think they would put a whole lot of effort into refurbishing an SKS to the point of rebarreling unless it was an experiment, or busy work...perhaps training purposes even?   Maybe Sergi Pyle's first offense warranted a year in a refurb plant...second was a gulag, third was Siberia. 

 As time moves on and we evolve into a more modern disposable world, and the lack of truly heavy use of the SKS during it's cold war existence the refurbing of these seems less than necessary...considering the massive amount of them on hand, not being the primary weapon, and not being involved in an active heavy combat situation before they were mothballed....the extent of refurbing they did seems insane to me.

I vote this thread as November post of the month....very interesting discussion.

[Loose}{Cannon]

No need to make/maintain as many as possible?  No need to arm warsaw nations?   

Mother russia not utilize all serviceable parts?   

Its a wonder they refurbed guns to begin with!

[Loose}{Cannon]

Justin..  what numbers you find on barrel and where?

[Loose}{Cannon]

[Justin Hell]

Gotta try get the bum out of my gun room before my daughter comes home and kills him....the 49/50 is sitting here awaiting disassembly...but I only have a couple hours to get a battery under his hood and a tire on his rim...send his stupid ass off to California and prevent a crime scene.

BRB

[Boris Badinov]

Just got back.

Did 52 miles on the bike -- it was a beautiful day out so I had to take advantage of it and work of the Turkey, stuffin, pie etc. I also ended up in a 3' deep, sludge filled ditch that, covered with leaves, looked like solid ground. The kind of sludge that smells like sewage. But the ride made it worth the sludge because: "Rule number one  for surving Zombieland": https://youtu.be/Ci9dCZEF6Mw?t=2s

If I am going to be able to participate further and meaningfully, I'm gonna have to go back through the entire thread and try and wrap my head around points that you've all made -- lots of good ones and plenty to think about.

But right now: I. Am. Beat. Gonna eat leftovers, watch the last two episodes of Stranger Things 2 with my better half, and then crash out. But I will go through my 45's in the morning -- if i don't end up at the range-- and post my findings. along with any new insights or inquiries that come up.


Great thread, gents.

(glad i thought of it. haha. I kid)

goodnight.

[Boris Badinov]

Question:

Are top and bottom lug flats machined before or after seating the barrel?

...

The only practical answer I can come up with is that the top and bottom lug flats must be machined after the barrel has been fully seated into the receiver. Because the "top" and "bottom" of the barrel lug cannot be determined (nor the RSB attached and indexed) until the barrel has been fully seated.

[Loose}{Cannon]

If you have a measuring/numbering system to ensure proper indexing, you sure as sheet can have lug flats when installed...I know I did.   

How they put a wrench on thar?   Those suckers are ON THERE TIGHT, ask me how I know.

"Must be"   

[Boris Badinov]

Another reason I know the barrel was NOT removed to fit/install/index the barrel components is because the RSB covers the barrel lug flat.... How ya gonna put a wrench on thar?!?!.

While we are at it....  Go ahead and drive out those RSB pins on TWO russians or two chinese, drift them forward to gain access to the lug flats, bust those barrels off and swap them...... See if they index.  Be sure to have different numbers on the guns. 

Disclaimer:  I already know how this will end, but its a good learning experience.

Ya don't need to have access to the lug flats to remove an sks barrel from the receiver. You simply need the right tools:  Put the barrel in a barrel vice, and use an action wrench on the the receiver flats to break the barrel free. Pretty straightforward:

https://youtu.be/H9IehOwCyXU?t=27s

As Larry Potter says, "So, that's how ya pull a barrel. No too difficult if you've got the right tools, but impossible if you don't."

[Boris Badinov]

If you have a measuring/numbering system to ensure proper indexing, you sure as sheet can have lug flats when installed...I know I did.   

How they put a wrench on thar?   Those suckers are ON THERE TIGHT, ask me how I know.

"Must be"   

Not sure I understand the wording. Are you saying the flats are machined before or after seating the barrel?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ok Boris....  You gonna love this.

If these numbers have anything to do with indexing a threaded barrel and nothing to do with keeping them together with the receiver. Then pinned barrels will NOT have them.

All sksfiles members please report. 

[Boris Badinov]

Hey Boris,

I always assumed that the stocks were XXX'd and replaced on different guns because that single part is the most time intensive part on the SKS and as such it was impractical to replace the same stock on the same rifle after a refurb.  By time intensive, I mean that it took many many hours, perhaps even days for all the processes to take place and for things to dry and cure properly before it could be handled and reinstalled.

Pull a stock off the rifle, remove all the metal components, strip it/sand it, hit it with at least one coat of shellac if not several with a fair amount of drying time in between, assign it to a rifle, fit the crosssbolt to the receiver correctly, sand internally as needed, check that the bayo cut is correct, and finally XXX and/or stamp it with the correct serial number.  I'd guess that many stocks were cracked and unsalvageable...off to the furnaces with those...which would mean there would be an equal number of blank hardwood and two crossbolt amber laminates on various guns indicating 'new' stocks coming into the equation.

I hadn't considered that perhaps the stocks are coming off guns that no longer exist...that's an interesting thought.  Would it be likely that stocks would outlast barrels though?  I have a hard time wrapping my head around that one, would a shot out gun have decent wood on it?  Maybe I'm being unduly influenced by the Sino-banians and how nice the bores are (albeit they are all chrome lined) and how poor (in many cases) the wood looks.  Good stuff though, I'm diggin' it!

The way I look at it...all scenarios are viable. Without evidence of the process and the level of efficiency and standardization involved, my best guess is that all scenarios are likely true.

Some stocks in great condition were separated from rifles with metal deemed to corroded to reservice. While other stocks required more intensive attention, due to poor condition of the finish.

I have two 45's with stock minor stock repairs, both are also xxxx'd and force matched.

[Loose}{Cannon]

And one of them has a #2 on the FSB....  Never did report on those fitment numberings.... Crossbolts either.

[Justin Hell]

Damn, so now we need to check all SKSs with threaded barrels?  I don't recall seeing the numbers and index marks on my Chinese...but now I am intrigued....almost enough to confront the couch surfer that JUST WONT LEAVE.  I hate being a nice guy....just as much as I hate not knowing.

[Boris Badinov]

And one of them has a #2 on the FSB....  Never did report on those fitment numberings.... Crossbolts either.

I am only one man. I  can't do everything at once.

Would you, please, explain the meaning of your statement above. As I don't understand your wording.

Are you saying the flats are machined before or after seating the barrel?