Author Topic: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet  (Read 78569 times)

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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2018, 04:26:02 PM »
#2 definitely has a replacement cover....  That makes it a 50 also based on other features. 

All three are 50s....  With blades.  The OP has a dif prefix entirely and the serial stamps are suspect.   Likely a 49 with a 50 cover. 

Gotta love refurbs.

Suspect as in....   Im not even convinced the receiver serial has an E to begin with. 
      
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Offline newchi

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2018, 05:54:23 PM »
So, if this was originally a Б M with a less than perfectly struck stamp, where would that put it in RM's all knowing data list?
Second tuesday in march, just after lunch 1950?
Or does it screw it up completely because all other Б M are 1954 or something?

Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2018, 06:47:27 PM »
I've never seen a Б<?> prefix before.  There are several <?>Б prefixes and 1954 Izhevsks with the format Б####_<?>.  Here's a list of what I've got in the <?>Б format:

Prefix 1 | Prefix 2 | # | Suffix | Rec. Tula Star | Refurb. | Receiver Cover Year
В | Б | 2639 |  | Uncertain | Bubba | 1953
В | Б | 4711 |  | N | Heavy | 1953
В | Б | 5348 |  | N | Heavy | 1953
Е | Б | 194 |  | Uncertain | Heavy | 1950
Е | Б | 427 |  | N | Heavy | 1949
Е | Б | 485 |  | N | Heavy | 1950
Ж | Б | 781 |  | Uncertain | Light | 1949
З | Б | 665 |  | N | Light | 1953
И | Б | 2790 | Д | Uncertain | Light | Blank
К | Б | 1113 |  | Uncertain | Light | 1953
К | Б | 1958 |  | N | Light | 1953
К | Б | 2470 |  | N | Heavy | 1953
К | Б | 220 | Д | Y | Bubba | Blank
К | Б | 2317 | Д | Y | Light | Uncertain
К | Б | 5931 | Д | Y | Heavy | Uncertain
К | Б | 6522 | Д | Y | Light | Blank Star
Л | Б | 1132 |  | N | Heavy | 1953
Н | Б | 5090 |  | Uncertain | Uncertain | Uncertain
Н | Б | 415 | Д | Y | Bubba | Blank
Н | Б | 1432 | Д | Y | Heavy | Blank
Н | Б | 1478 | Д | Uncertain | Uncertain | Blank
Н | Б | 2647 | Д | Uncertain | Uncertain | Blank
Н | Б | 2790 | Д | Y | Heavy | Blank
Н | Б | 2997 | Д | Y | As-Issued | Blank
Н | Б | 6352 | Д | Y | Heavy | Blank
Т | Б | 1325 | Д | Y | As-Issued | Uncertain
Т | Б | 1331 | Д | Uncertain | Uncertain | Uncertain
Т | Б | 2193 | Д | Y | Uncertain | Blank
Т | Б | 5975 | Д | Y | Bubba | Uncertain
Т | Б | 6166 | Д | Y | Heavy | Uncertain
Т | Б | 6809 | Д | Y | Heavy | 1949


I'm not convinced it's a Б on the OP's gun.  I am also not convinced that the cover and receiver fonts match as well as was once thought either.  The numbers look great, but the prefix don't seem to, especially the aspect ratio left to right vs top to bottom of the two E's receiver to receiver cover.

The bottom line is this: we can all talk until we are blue in the face and it matters not one little bit.  Without another example, nothing can be determined from this firearm. 

I'm having issues because it doesn't match the other EM prefixed guns with respect to stock ferrule and bayonet.  Either the gun is legit and the serial data is wrong or the serial data is right and the gun is suspect. 

Here are the different scenarios I can come up with:
  • Gun is legit, EM prefixes are all consecutively produced in 1950 and this particular firearm received a spike bayo and top pin ferrule at fabrication.   Other EM prefixed guns (both before and after) received blade bayos and bottom ferrule welded early stock ferrules at initial fabrication which were not changed at refurb.
  • Gun is legit, EM prefixes are all consecutively produced in 1950 and this particular firearm received a spike bayo and top pin ferrule at refurb.  Other EM prefixes were all refurbed but blade bayos and bottom pinned were left on those.
  • Gun is legit, two consecutive series of EM prefixed guns were produced in 1949 and 1950.  The '49s were produced with unknown bayo and ferrule features but after refurb, all known specimens have blades and top pin ferrules.  The '50's were produced with unknown bayo and ferrule configurations, but after refurb some specimens have spike/bottom pin features (like the OP) while others have blade/top pin ferrules.
  • Gun is legit but receiver prefix is a Б and rest of gun is a E.  Mistake was made at fabrication.
  • Gun is not legit and is really a '49 with a transitional '50 replacement cover.  Included in this is possibility of the receiver prefix being Б and component prefixes reading E - all restamped at refurb.
  • Gun is not legit and is really a '50 with replacement stock, bayonet, and ferrule.

Anyone think of anything else?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 07:09:19 PM by running-man »
      

Offline newchi

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #143 on: January 09, 2018, 07:04:47 PM »
Well, that answered my question in spades  :o

Personally, im happy with saying. meh, refurbs, whatcha gonna do.

I dont see a conclusive answer coming anytime soon.

Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #144 on: January 09, 2018, 07:07:11 PM »
NotyaCCCP's survey shows БК89 being a 1950 gun.  One data point, but if there was one made with a Б prefix, others could certainly exist.  No photos unfortunately to verify.
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #145 on: January 09, 2018, 09:57:52 PM »
A note on ferrules.

I'm seeing ALOT of emphasis and faith put on them as being a standard regarding top pin or bottom pin etc. 

What I see is a component that has no hole location until its mated with a barrel.  I also see that both during and after the transition from spike to blade..... There's gonna be some ferrules of the spike design having no bayo cut that will HAVE to be used up as evidenced by cutting and reinforcement via weld.  Its a hodge podge to begin with and after a few refurbs later using whatever is on hand.... All bets are off.
      
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Offline running-man

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2018, 09:10:49 AM »
There are no documented bottom pin ferrules with blade bayos.  Might be a space constraint with that pin, the cleaning rod, and a stored blade bayo perhaps?

I suppose physically there is no reason that an early short top pinned ferrule could not be used with a spike, but I've never seen one. 
      

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2018, 10:56:03 AM »
I see...  Thought I must have been missing something. 

I believe the only way to solve this issue will be to revisit the blade 49s in effort to possibly determine if they were originally a blade gun from factory.  One thing ALL 49s have in common is that they are ALL refurbs regardless as to what bayo type they have.  We have NO standard as to what should be what. How do we know 'some' of the spike guns were not originally late 49 blade guns? That being said, everyone has automatically assumed the blade guns were converted at refurb.  Perhaps some of the blade guns were converted to spike at refurb.  If the transition happened in 49, why would we expect to see anything other then top pin ferrules on them? 

I guess the only way to know would be to take the ferrule off of a 49 blade gun and look for a bottom pin notch in the barrel......  Thats the only way to prove it was converted. 
      
1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms... It doesn't matter how many Lenins you get out on the street begging for them to be taken.

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #148 on: January 11, 2018, 11:37:44 AM »
I had a first believed that it was a uneven stamped E, but with close up pictures, I now doubt it. In my opinion of running-man's 6 options, I would pick #4. Not knowing but speculating, the stamp on receiver looked wonky and worker grabbed a E and stamped the rest. If it was done at refurb, the rest of gun would have been forced matched. And that would be a tell tale sign. I have a 49 with the bolt S/N crossed out and matching new S/N engraved.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #149 on: January 11, 2018, 09:38:12 PM »
I am under the impression that its highly unlikely that a stamping tech made a stamp (possibly several), put the stamp away/down, and then proceeded to select yet another stamp to finish the gun.  Given the mag etc.... We know stuff was replaced at refurb atleast once.  It is most likely the letter on the receiver was created in partial by a chipped/damaged stamp at birth, and the refurb monkeys mistook it for an E.

      
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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #150 on: January 11, 2018, 10:06:59 PM »
So at refurb they would replace bolt. bolt carrier, and cover and restamp items. Would they have 49/early 50 parts available (5 years later) that have not been used to put on this carbine? Would they have a early cover available to engrave date and hand stamp tula star and why not just stamp as was done on later models? Would they not have crossed out S/N on bolt and engraved new S/N? Would they not have scrubbed out bolt carrier S/N and just engraved an new S/N? And if they were going this far into refurbishing this carbine, why not replace spike bayonet and stock ferrule? I have a 49 with all of these things done to it. Running-man has pictures of this 49 that I gave to him for his survey.The laminate stock proves that it has gone to refurb. but there are 49s out there with laminate stocks also. There are so many questions about this carbine that I think that it will take time and other examples to prove.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2018, 10:38:44 PM »
Quote
Would they have 49/early 50 parts available (5 years later) that have not been used to put on this carbine?

Of course.... They made the darn thing didn't they?  Wouldn't a refurb facility have..... Gun parts?   You may be forgetting they scrubbed serial numbers spicifically for this purpose. New or scrubbed.... Take your pick.


Quote
Would they have a early cover available to engrave date and hand stamp tula star and why not just stamp as was done on later models?

Its a 'refurb' facility, not a 'new' facility.  Yes, they would have an abundance of already dated and serialized parts that are scrubbed of their serial in order to be used at will.   Have you looked at the picture I have posted several times on several boards showing you the proof of a scrubbed 53 cover on a late 50/early 51 gun?  This is the entire reason you cannot put any faith in what is stamped on a cover if its a refurb which is exactly what you are doing.  Its just a stubborn fact.

Quote
Would they not have crossed out S/N on bolt and engraved new S/N? Would they not have scrubbed out bolt carrier S/N and just engraved an new S/N?

No, out of thousands of refurbs, I have seen maybe 2 with a random lined out serial.

Quote
Would they not have crossed out S/N on bolt and engraved new S/N? Would they not have scrubbed out bolt carrier S/N and just engraved an new S/N?

Why would they?  We have seen every configuration known under the sun in terms of components being replace or not replaced.  Was the barreled receiver fine the way it was??   You have to remember, most of the time rifles that were 100% ok were likely refurbed just to keep the peasants busy, and you may find yourself trying to look very busy indeed so the Kremlin dont shut the doors and make you shovel snow again.  You should see some of the abandoned videos and pictures of people going to these now closed facilities. 

Either way 49 or 50, I fear your dilemma will never be solved.  I have sensed you want this gun to be unique and thats fine!.  Just don't make the mistake of trying to force it into fruition.
      
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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2018, 11:13:37 PM »
What we know is that what the Russians did with the SKS and production are unknowns. We conjecture and try to find out more and the more we look we find out that there are other variables. I look at all sides of a argument and if I see that there is a valuable point I accept the fact. You have valid points but I doubt is they would have parts laying around for 5 years to refurb this carbine. I would think that they would have used up the parts and replaced them when modifications were made. Why store items for 5 or more years. Early 49/50 covers will only fit on this carbine. And refurbs usually show forced matched. If I am wrong , I admit it, looks like font is not a E, by close up photos. I also look at all the other S/Ns in album.

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2018, 11:22:15 PM »
I will bet you somewhere in Russia right now there are piles of parts such as covers for the 45.  They still use the damn things and they made millions... Right?

Besides, the most likely scenario for a refurb facility would be to strip em all down and start reworking.  500 guns in.... 500 guns worth of parts on hand.  Some of these places would have thousands of guns being processed. 

What your saying is the equivalent to stating Ford Motor Company would not have a tire that fits a 2013 model in 2018. 
      
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Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2018, 11:36:19 PM »
For a part that was in production for approx. 1.5 years and then swapped out . You are thinking U.S.A not Russian fabrication. And like I said, on my heavily refurbed 49, the only original parts are the receiver, barrel and receiver cover. Why would they do this to this carbine and not my 50?

Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #155 on: January 11, 2018, 11:41:01 PM »
You lost me on the 1.5. 

Again...   Many guns in and many parts to choose from.  They made them... By the millions.  They had so many dang parts your head would spin.  We have no clue when it was refurbed, how many times it was refurbed, where it was refurbed, or what level of refurb it received.  Fact

Stating Russia wouldn't have a 50 cover to use ON AN EARLY TAKEDOWN PIN GUN that it fits correctly.... I call BS
      
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Offline Loose}{Cannon

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #156 on: January 12, 2018, 12:07:58 AM »
I'm not trying to discourage you.  We here at sksfiles like a good mystery.  But you have to understand the sks is literally almost ALL we do, and we are the last place that will make a definitive conclusion without having enough to go on.  Everyone will have an opinion but yet NOBODY knows with any level of certainty.

The main problem is, we have ZERO examples of an original 49, yet alone a plethora of them to know exactly what they did and when.

If you bring us an all original non refurb 1950 spiker...... Ill be the first to start making mass newsletter announcements, but your carbine (totally badazz btw) isn't likely to get us there. 
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 12:41:22 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
      
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Offline Justin Hell

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #157 on: January 12, 2018, 01:30:10 AM »
I had a scrubbed, and not reserialed 49 cover on it's way from Russia within six weeks of starting to search for one in any condition.  My guy gets stuff directly from the factories and armories. They have recycling centers for old guns too. The majority of his parts come from those centers. Mine had been scrubbed and mothballed with a dip in the paint and left sitting for who knows how long...with original bluing, except where scrubbed and painted...no refurb stamp even.  Russia has parts.

There are even posters presumably meant for the refurb guys, that point out the key differences between the early guns and late guns. I believe there was one stateside, that accidentally got tossed into a fire still in it's tube.

Offline jstin2

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2018, 07:06:35 AM »
I totally agree with you and have mentioned this before. This carbine cannot be proven without other examples, and so far, none are forth coming. 50 was a transitional year. Spike to blade, stock ferrule and stock (debateable), 90 degree gas port to 45, engraved date and hand stamped to single stamp. And somewhere in there, but later would be the eyelet latch pin and cover and spring loaded bolt and carrier. I bought my first SKS 1 !/2 years ago, but in the last 6 months learned a lot about this carbine from all persons involved. I resect your years of knowledge and am still learning. Questions and debates about this carbine brings forth different aspects. All have to admit that any questions or pictures that have been asked of me, I have submitted.

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: 1950 SKS with spike bayonet
« Reply #159 on: January 12, 2018, 08:13:36 AM »
Do you happen to have a caliper to measure the distance between the front and rear pins on the FSB?

If you do and can compare to later guns to see if there is a discrepancy between the two, it might be another indicator of 49 vs 50. IIRC it should be about half a pin width difference longer than standard pin placement later.  Once I get my leg cast wearin' gun room invadin' kid out of my way I will try find my caliper and original neutered sight to compare.  I don't know how effectively accurate it can be measuring diagonally between round holes on a rounded surface...especially with such a small amount, but it might be possible. Since the pin depth into the barrel is also different, a diagonal measurement might be compromised though.