Author Topic: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info  (Read 2065 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Greasemonkey

  • Professional foul mouth. Banned for life!! Certified Enabler
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • Never rub another man's rhubarb!!!
C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« on: December 01, 2014, 01:19:47 PM »
Q: May a non-licensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?
A non-licensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


Shipping firearms out of state

It's legal for a non-licensee to ship a firearm to a licensee (an FFL holder). You will need a copy of the licensee's FFL and it's recommend when shipping to a Class 03 C&R holder to get a copy of their FFL license to validate they are a license holder before shipping. And ship only to the address on the license in either case. You can check it with the ATF here for FFL 01 holders:

https://www.atfonline.gov/fflezcheck/

And to make life easier for an FFL 01 or 03 holder, a copy of the drivers license sent by the non-licenses seller/shipper in an envelope on the outside of the box, or even inside the box is strongly recommend. It makes logging the said firearm much easier.

Same deal. Ship a rifle via USPS, ship handguns via UPS/FedEx. Priority is highly recommended for the USPS. And it is highly recommended to get delivery confirmation and insurance though the shipper. Some FFLs are a pain about accepting shipments from individuals, so make sure the buyer has cleared the shipment first. Note, it is sometimes cheaper to pay an FFL to do the transfer for you on a pistol, because, surprise, the USPS allows handgun shipments by licensees.

Remember use the quickest shipping method you can afford, the less time said weapon is in the shipping flow, the less time there is for anything to happen to it, and typically the closer the package is tracked. Yea, I know everyone wants to save a buck or two on shipping, but be realistic and not a tightwad, think of what’s between the two parties in the transaction. Alot of hands will touch the package and in shipping rushes, things get lost. In today’s world, a weapon lost in shipping is or can be almost as dangerous as a lost nuclear warhead...


Now below covers most states, IN-STATE PURCHASES, "some states" allow private sales, meaning no FFL involvement, no FFL transfer between in-state residents. You can be un-licensed and ship a firearm to another non-licesened resident in the same state. (PLEASE CHECK LOCAL AND STATE LAWS PRIOR)

Q: May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

    A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

    [18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

USPS policy on handguns/pistols
 432.2 Handguns


Handguns and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person are nonmailable unless mailed between the parties listed in this section, after the filing of an affidavit or statement described in 432.22 or 432.24, and are subject to the following:

1.    Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.
2.    Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2, which are certified by the curator of a municipal, state, or federal museum that exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest, may be accepted for mailing without regard to the restrictions provided for handguns in Exhibit 432.25 and in 432.21 through 432.24.
3.    Air guns that do not fall within the definition of firearms under 431.1 that are capable of being concealed on a person are mailable, but must include adult signature service under DMM 503.9.0. Mailers must comply with all applicable state and local regulations.
4.    Parts of handguns are mailable, except for handgun frames, receivers or other parts or components regulated under Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C.
5.    Mailers are also subject to applicable restrictions by governments of a state, territory, or district.


Now with in state purchases, a sale between two unlicensed persons opens up "liability", even if it's a back lot behind the dumpster FTF sale/purchase. Once the weapon leaves your hands, your not in control of it any longer, but with some good lawyers you "could" be held accountable for it. Be sure of the person on the receiving end. Insist on a signed bill of sale, even a copy of their driver license, CCW license, Military I.D., Voter card, something valid. If you bought the weapon from a dealer, and flip it/trade it/sell it, and IT is used in a crime, you could be asked to verify who, when, where you sold it to, handguns can be easy for LEOs/FEDs to track. If there is no evidence or proof of the buyer, things could get interesting quick. Cover your azz, keep it 100% legal, remember you have the right to refuse to sell or deal with anyone your not comfortable with. A little documentation now could save you a whole lot of headache later.

Sample of a bill of sale..


In state purchases between a non licensee and a FFL 03 or 01. The FFL holder is still required to log said weapon as required if buying or selling.


 Rifles

Rifles are fairly easy. Take them to the counter at the USPS, UPS or Fed Ex. Again, Inform the clerk that you are shipping a rifle. Remember you're required by federal law to inform the shipper that the package contains firearms. There's no additional fee to ship a rifle, except for package size criteria. Standard postage applies, Again, Priority is highly recommended for the USPS. And it is highly recommended to get delivery confirmation and insurance though the shipper.

Pistols

For non-licesened people, pistols are a pain in the rump. USPS as you have seen will not accept/ship them. The easiest way to ship them is through FedEx or UPS. Both carriers require that you ship from a hub.


For more USPS shipping information see: 432 Mailability

For more UPS shipping information see: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/packaging/guidelines/firearms.html

For more FedEx shipping information see: Prohibited & Restricted Articles | FXF Rules Tariff - FedEx


Helpful hints:
Ship them in a good unmarked strong box, some shops have extras at times. Shippers minimum requirements can be found on their respective pages. Wrap it and pack it well, if it comes out of the box during shipment, all sorts of nasties can happen and there is the chance of theft. Theft is no good in this instance, because tracking it becomes almost impossible. Remember if the weapon can move/slide freely inside the box, it could damage it's self or break out of the box. Remember the package wont be treated very nice, it will be beaten ruthlessly, get chucked up in a trailer or two and transferred from vehicle to vehicle, hub to hub.

If you have an FFL and ship, take a copy of your license with you when shipping and show the counter person, it typically goes smoother. If your shipping to a FFL holder, also show the counter person the receiving FFL license, also at times the transaction goes smoother. Remember their are non-firearm fanatics, and others who do not know laws and policy, they were not trained correctly. If, you believe what you are doing to be correct, the counter person is being hardheaded, ask for a supervisor or manager.

9 times out of 10, skip trying to ship through a UPS Store, while they are a division of UPS, typically they are not as up to date on laws and policy/procedure, they could refuse to ship it, even though it is 100% legal to do so. An actual hub is your best bet for problem free shipping.

Applicable to shipping any firearm via any shipper between any party. AMMO can not be shipped in the same package as a firearm, NO WAY, NO HOW!!
Ammo can not be sent through USPS, they are not licensed for HAZMAT materials. It's a Department of Transportation requirement the carrier have HAZMAT licensing and hauling ability. Even shipping one live round/cartridge is illegal though the mail.  Only ship ammo through UPS or FedEx, and the package must be plainly marked/labeled ORM-D, see for further info: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/ship/hazardous/examples/ground_ormd.html  or  Current Requirements for FedEx Dangerous Goods and Hazardous Materials Shipments

And, if your really wanting to know DOT and HAZMAT regulations How to Comply with Federal Hazardous Materials Regulations | Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration

Avoid buying and/or shipping around the holidays. Package flow is ungodly enormous and likely hood of any damage and loss is increased greatly. Patience can be a saving grace here. You can purchase, but sometimes if you ask the seller, they may hold your shipment till after the holiday rush. This is just a suggestion, in the many years of experience in the freight industry and collecting, the holidays are the roughest on packages, and believe me, I've seen forklifts used to mash the freight in trailers to get the doors shut. Plus, this time of year, freight carriers use alot of temp. employees, highly untrained at packing trailers, moving freight and package trucks adding to the amount of damage. This one is totally your call as it is your weapon!!!!!


A good site for laws in all states Handgunlaw.us

Now I'm sure question on Class 3 will arise, any info on the federal level is here http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html
Please see your state/local laws before proceeding.
I said I was an addict. I didn't say I had a problem.

It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what....

Offline Phosphorus32

  • Global Moderator With Battlefield Commission
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 2623
  • Send lawyers guns and money...uh, skip the lawyers
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 02:22:40 PM »
This is a great primer GM!  thumb1  Thanks!

I've downloaded and used that exact bill of sale for FTF sales.  I do them in daylight, in a less busy area of an otherwise busy parking lot, keep my situational awareness up with regard to the buyer and anyone else that may be present (and I carry).

It's amazing how many crazy/unlawful things people will try.  Mostly ignorance I suspect.  An out of state guy wanted to buy a rifle I had on Armslist via FTF sale  stop1 ...uh, no...I can ship it to your FFL if you want to cover shipping and your transfer fees.
“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”
-Mark Twain

Offline Crazyone

  • SKS-FILES CONTRIBUTOR
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Rifleman
  • *
  • Posts: 133
  • This won't hurt a bit!
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 03:36:06 PM »
I live in Kansas and haven't got my C&R yet (it's coming  ::)   I have sent several rifles through the post office here all to out of state and only to License holders--here the post office retains a copy of both your ID and the copy of the persons license I ship to for their records---they are quicker--cost less than UPS - and you don't have to wait till after 4:30 PM to ship them because they only do commercial shipping from 8 AM to 3:30 PM   :) :) :)
Give me your poor-your broke-your homeless-Blued & Birch Letter guns and your DDR/Liski's !

Offline Worm

  • BATTLEFIELD COMMISSION
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sharp-Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 1048
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 07:00:00 PM »
So if I sell a gun to a guy, and he uses it in a crime.. How is that gun tracked back to me exactly?

I've never used a bill of sale, but only sell to those i'm comfortable selling to. Usually we ask each other to see our ccw licenses and then it's good to go.

Online running-man

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+4)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 3724
  • The only way to avoid Mosin #2 is avoid Mosin #1!
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2014, 07:11:25 PM »
So if I sell a gun to a guy, and he uses it in a crime.. How is that gun tracked back to me exactly?

I've never used a bill of sale, but only sell to those i'm comfortable selling to. Usually we ask each other to see our ccw licenses and then it's good to go.

Given enough motivation, ATF can easily trace importation and then work their way forward.  All the way back to the importer, then the wholesaler, then the retailer, then owner #1, owner #2, owner #3…etc. if possible.  If one of those owners is only 1 degree of separation away from you, it's likely you're the next one they will talk to…

Especially if you bought it from a FFL.  Then it's on some record somewhere even if it's only in a bound book, 4473, or in a 'destroyed' NICS record.  Even private sales, given enough investigative resources, can still be tracked to a point. 

A bill of sale is not a foolproof way to avoid being sued, but it's an additional layer of protection, and I think very prudent when dealing with people you really don't know.
      

Online Greasemonkey

  • Professional foul mouth. Banned for life!! Certified Enabler
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • Never rub another man's rhubarb!!!
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2014, 07:47:04 PM »
So if I sell a gun to a guy, and he uses it in a crime.. How is that gun tracked back to me exactly?

I've never used a bill of sale, but only sell to those i'm comfortable selling to. Usually we ask each other to see our ccw licenses and then it's good to go.

How can you buying a gun from a dealer be traced back to you after a period of time if you sell it? Easy thumb1  Licensed dealers/retailers must also maintain file copies of Form 4473 or eForm 4473 "Firearms Transaction Record" documents, for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. When retiring or otherwise relinquishing a license, these records are sent to the ATF's Out-of-Business Records Center.  This is just the bare minimum Federal requirement, a basis for state laws to go off of, certain states can be even more forceful and strict in required record keeping, but they have to adhere to the minimum fed requirement.

I said I was an addict. I didn't say I had a problem.

It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what....

Offline Worm

  • BATTLEFIELD COMMISSION
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sharp-Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 1048
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2014, 09:26:09 PM »
I guess I'm not sure why it matters if you didnt commit the crime. If you know the guys a felon, and you sell him a gun, well then you committed a crime.

If not? Whats it matter i guess is my point.

Gun shows, armslist, etc still exist because this is still legal, selling a firearm to a stranger without a background check. While this is still legal, I don't really see me filling one out.

I guess I can understand the extra peace of mind but.. Not until i have to ig.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 09:33:05 PM by Worm »

Offline Phosphorus32

  • Global Moderator With Battlefield Commission
  • Trade Count: (+6)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: 2623
  • Send lawyers guns and money...uh, skip the lawyers
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2014, 09:48:01 PM »
Personally, I think if the buyer is a felon or otherwise disqualified from firearms ownership, then I suspect he would not be excited about filling out a bill of sale with his information.  In other words, telling the buyer ahead of time that I require a bill of sale be filled out and that valid government issued identification be presented may be a deterrent to the illicit buyer.
“I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.”
-Mark Twain

Offline Worm

  • BATTLEFIELD COMMISSION
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sharp-Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 1048
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2014, 09:55:58 PM »
Personally, I think if the buyer is a felon or otherwise disqualified from firearms ownership, then I suspect he would not be excited about filling out a bill of sale with his information.  In other words, telling the buyer ahead of time that I require a bill of sale be filled out and that valid government issued identification be presented may be a deterrent to the illicit buyer.

I suppose, then again.. they're committing the same crime regardless if they fill out a form or not. Makes some sense to take the time to fill it out I guess, just kinda feel like I'm bending over to .gov some more doing so.

Online Greasemonkey

  • Professional foul mouth. Banned for life!! Certified Enabler
  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sniper
  • *
  • Posts: I am a geek!!
  • Never rub another man's rhubarb!!!
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 10:11:14 PM »
Ok, lets see if I can explain it.  Don't think about short term say a year or two, think long term, over a period of say 10-15 years.

You buy a firearm from a dealer, 5 years later you sell to a known good guy, with no paperwork, then either Mr. Law Abiding Citizen A: falls off the wagon, and at some point later goes flatout  ape nutz way laying several people or B: the Mr. Law Abiding Citizen is very hard up for mortgage money a few years later and just up and dumps it for chump change to the first person to wave green backs under his nose with no documentation, the #2 buyer ends up being a repeat assault and battery offender who cant purchase a gun legally.

So in the laws eyes lets look at B:, the law could try and say you sold the weapon to Mr. Assault and Battery, because Mr. Law Abiding Citizen has flat out vanished and you have no proof he ever existed or proof you even sold a weapon to him. The investigation will trace said weapon from the dealer to your name, you claim you sold it a few years later to Mr. Law Abiding Citizen but you have no proof of who the buyer was. But yet Mr Assault and Battery still ended up with your weapon, and there is no proof, no evidence you didn't just flat out sell it to him. With a bill of sale, you at least have the buyers name, DL#, address something other than I don't know, say a guy named Travis, mid/upper 30's, had a CCW, wearing a ball cap and driving a blue Prius.


Again, you have no clue, no control, no idea where it goes, what it does, who has it, once it leaves your hand, even years down the road, you may very well sell it to Mr. Law Abiding Citizen today, which is great, but what happens then with no proof of who or where you sold it to. Who or what is to say years later it doesn’t end up in the wrong hands, or used for evil. Documentation is much like a condom :o, it's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. It's not a save all, fix all for protection, but at least you have proof of at this particular day and time, there was a fully legal buyer on the receiving end of your transaction, what this Mr. Law Abiding Citizen did is now his problem, not yours. 

TRUST NO ONE!!
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 10:30:40 PM by Greasemonkey »
I said I was an addict. I didn't say I had a problem.

It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what....

Offline Worm

  • BATTLEFIELD COMMISSION
  • Trade Count: (+7)
  • Sharp-Shooter
  • *
  • Posts: 1048
Re: C&R/FFL/Private sale, Shipping items and other useful info
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 09:17:11 PM »
 thumb1