Author Topic: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas  (Read 666 times)

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Online Boris Badinov

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Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« on: September 13, 2017, 01:15:30 AM »
If 1950 Tula has the early eye-hole  receiver cover release tab will it have the 90degree gas port?

Or does the eye-hole tab overlap with the introduction of the 45degree gas port?

I ask because a member over on the akfiles claims to have found BBQ'd 1950 in a force matched 1951 stock and an early style, eyelet release tab

...for $500
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 01:20:19 AM by Boris Badinov »

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2017, 01:23:38 AM »
Price seemed a tad high for a heavy bbq refurb (apparently all metal parts match).

But if it has a 90degree gas port-- even with the bbq and forcematch stock-- it would be worth more...no? Possibly substantially more?

Offline newchi

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2017, 08:38:08 AM »
I (my dad really) have a 50 with the eye hole latch and it has the 45, for whatever thats worth.

Online running-man

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2017, 08:44:27 AM »
There is overlap.  It's not 100% clear whether the tab changed first or whether the gas block did, but based on the 10 or 15 examples I have in the database I suspect it was the gas block changing early on and then the takedown lever changing to a stamped loop tab and then shortly to the long stamped tab.  I'm out on TDY this week so I'll see if I can find some time to get some examples up later today.

$500 is not out of line for a heavy furb.  High end perhaps, but they can run in $600s if the BBQ paint is in good shape and they have blonde laminate stocks.
      

Online Boris Badinov

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2017, 08:56:56 AM »
$500 is not out of line for a heavy furb.  High end perhaps, but they can run in $600s if the BBQ paint is in good shape and they have blonde laminate stocks.

Do you mean for an 1950 early style, eyelet tab rifle?

Or a 1950 with the eyelet tab AND the 90degree gas block?

Or is the 90degree gas block only very valuable on the 49 carbines?

Online running-man

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2017, 04:59:22 PM »
$500 for any heavy furb Russian. Transitional '50s generally don't have that much premium over others, maybe $50 on avg. I'd say.
      

Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 06:58:18 PM »
I have a refurbished 50. It has a 45 degree gas port and has a eye hole latch pin.

Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2017, 10:43:50 PM »
On Canadian Gun Nutz forum under my 1950 entry a 1950 was posted with pictures. It has the engraved date, hand stamped Tula star and eyelet latch cover. It doesn't have a 90 degree gas port or spike bayonet. But it shows early a 1950 transition.  It has a refurb mark and painted, but it should help in showing how the carbine changed in 1950.

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 08:26:34 AM »
I'm not finding your post there. Is it in the red rifles section?  Got a link?
      

Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 10:01:50 AM »
Canadian Gun Nutz - Forum - Firearm and Optics - Milsurp -  It is on page 2, 11-04-2017-10:32 PM. I am waiting for his permission to post his pictures on this forum.

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 12:46:27 PM »
Ahh I was looking in red rifles.  Got it: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1628049-1950-SKS-with-SPIKE-BAYONET

I have 4 ЕГ guns in the database, but three of them are '53 Izhevsks.  The 1 odd man out is an unidentified year gun:





Unfortunately, not a ton of detail in those photos, I can't make out the receiver cover stamping other than to see it's a Tula.  Very plausible it's a '50 due to the early receiver and early bolt design though.  May or may not have a 90 gas block and/or looped receiver cover takedown lever.
      

Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 11:38:40 PM »
This is only my observation about the transition, as I have looked at multiple 50's. I believe the spike bayonet went first, then the 90 degree port, then the engraved date and hand stamped tula star  and finally the eyelet latch cover. Later it was the spring loaded firing pin. I think that it was a case of using up what was left over from the 49's and also time saving process of stamping date and tula star. There may be a discussion about this, but during refurb things were changed at their whim. Case in fact, why does some 49's have 45 degree gas port and a blade bayonet- refurb (I have one).

Offline pcke2000

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2017, 11:47:54 PM »
This is only my observation about the transition, as I have looked at multiple 50's. I believe the spike bayonet went first, then the 90 degree port, then the engraved date and hand stamped tula star  and finally the eyelet latch cover. Later it was the spring loaded firing pin. I think that it was a case of using up what was left over from the 49's and also time saving process of stamping date and tula star. There may be a discussion about this, but during refurb things were changed at their whim. Case in fact, why does some 49's have 45 degree gas port and a blade bayonet- refurb (I have one).

It may indeed be the case. In the Soviet SKS User's Manual 1951 year edition (published on Oct 16th, 1951), on page 3, it shows a photo of one example with blade bayonet and 45 degree gas port and another example with blade bayonet 90 degree gas port.

The manual also shows a photo of 90 degree gas port on page 9 and a photo of spike bayonet on page 33.

Offline newchi

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 12:10:11 AM »
Case in fact, why does some 49's have 45 degree gas port and a blade bayonet- refurb (I have one).

Because if the stock needed repair the new one (instead of waiting a week for fixing, gluing, sanding, shellac-ing)  was blade cut, so pop a pin, switch bayos and away you go.

If the barrel needed replacing then you got the new style gas block. its not worth the effort of changing otherwise.


Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 11:09:46 PM »
Again, this is only my opinion. When laminate stocks were replacing worn out stocks, that they still had the lathe for making the 49-early 50 SKSs with spike bayonet.  And in the case of my 50 with a spike bayonet the stock looks as if it was machined , not hand modified and it would have been time consuming if they did it by hand without proper tooling. If they had stocks already made up, using a lathe, it would only be a case of replacing stock. Stock ferrules were different for spike and blade bayonets, due to the stock.

Offline Justin Hell

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2017, 03:12:53 AM »
The routing for the bayonet slot on 49s I have seen refurbed with laminates kind of looks weird to me. Almost chiseled looking at the end of the slot...which it might have been, the amount of work needed to slim them down to the 49 ferrule seems tedious vs just upgrading the entire thing to fit the new standards....yet it some cases, it appears as if they did. 

I just can't wrap my head around them replacing one part to make up for it no longer being compliant with the current norm when refurbishing....at least with the haphazard refurbing process that has parts getting xxxed out or completely replaced.  There are enough little pains in the backside between 49 and 50 that would seem to warrant an entire barrel replacement vs. doing half the job, and having to deal with keeping the original gas block and front sight block together....which often does not appear to be the case during refurb.

The idea that somewhere in 50, a 49 would need to be reworked at all seems laughable to me. I am leaning more and more that the spike/blade transition actually happened across 49 and 50 and both were made concurrently for a while...and that at refurb, perhaps some of them just got special attention. As fastidious as they seemed to be with refurbing, you would think all early features would have been eliminated before we ever got to see them...but, they didn't....why? The fact that a seemingly verifiable spiker 50 exists seems to lend towards what I am saying.  Right?

I also think we never will really get to the bottom of the early Russian debacle...but it sure is fun thinking about it. My parents were born in 49....there is very likely nobody still alive with first hand knowledge what on earth they did. I sure am glad I dove in to my first Russian being so worthy of discussing though...everything else besides the first couple years almost seems boring. I think once I pick up a 45 degree 50...I might be done, unless a pretty Izzy comes up....I am running out of wall space to hang them. The guitar collection is getting nervous....they are almost outnumbered.  rofl

Bottom line, the differences between the pin placement on the 49 to early 50 on the FSB is an issue...the top vs. bottom pinned stock ferrules also is an issue....as is the slender stock needed for the spike and it's original tiny stock ferrule...which in no way resembles the later Chinese spike ferrule...yet another issue.  I think there was a lot more development during this period than we will ever be able to address for certain...I enjoy trying to make sense of it nonetheless. :)
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Offline newchi

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 10:26:16 AM »
Quote
The idea that somewhere in 50, a 49 would need to be reworked at all seems laughable to me

Thats what most people dont understand, refurb shops run from the first day guns enter production.
Pvt Gomer Pyleski may have stopped his jeep for a whizz, rested the rifle against the bumper, yelled at his buddy to hurry up and then they drive off..-what went crunch? F**K!

The truck taking them somewhere in crates could go off the road and roll down an embankment even, the reasons to go back for repair are endless. 


Offline jstin2

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Re: Regarding very early 1950 Tulas
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2017, 08:29:16 PM »
On survivor's forum, BenV purchased a 1950 SKS from Cabelas on line. From pictures it appears to have engraved date, hand stamped Tula Star and 90 degree gas port. And it has a blade bayonet. Cabelas had a sale on them for $200.00.